Question (and debate).

[Veritas]

The universe is a complex place. Obviously.

It would need someone to design it. You can't find a computer in the middle of nowhere and say it "just happened".

[davo]

Originally Posted by Veritas

@davo: because your idea implies and infinite regression. It's illogical to says things just happen.

eh?

Things need something to cause them to happen. A line of dominos is pushed by someone and therefore falls. They can just fall.

you have simply picked a point and said 'that is a cause' in a long line of existence.

And the universe has always existed, changing forms? Where's your evidence for that?

No, I said two things, one, where is your evidence that the universe could not have always existed AND, (if it didn't) where is your evidence that is was not a simple force, rather than a complex one you posit.

You simply state that there must be an extremely complex supernatural entity that always existed, and that a force could not.

Where is your evidence for that??

considering you have already stated that there must be something that always existed, you just claim that thing is a god. I am asking evidence for your claims.

[Goldenmane]

Originally Posted by Veritas

The universe: physical reality.

Exists: been in being.

Always: different depending on context: in all situations or for all of time.


Happy?

Not yet, no.

What do you mean by 'physical reality'? Why not 'everything, ever'?

And what do you understand 'time' to be? Can there be a 'before time'?

This is funny, because you're expounding upon what is the remit of cosmology, and the ideas I'm seeing look naive at best.

[Veritas]

Because an unmoved first cause, that had intellect must have started the universe.

You refer to other simple causes, care to define?

[Veritas]

Goldenmane: playing an endless game of defining terms avoids the question and gets us nowhere...

I give you definitions and you sneer and ask me to define my definitions.

[davo]

Originally Posted by Veritas

The universe is a complex place. Obviously.

It would need someone to design it.

No that is just a claim, there are many things that look complex, that have very well understood explanations.

You can't find a computer in the middle of nowhere and say it "just happened".

If I find a computer on the ground, I can also find and speak to the creator of it. There is tangible evidence as to how it was made and for what reason. Indeed looking at my PC atm it has had not one creator, but multiple creators, countless people and gradual processes of adaption and change have led to the machine it is today.

I do not see how the computer analogy in any way confirms the existence of one designer of the universe. You are associating creation with their having to be a creator, and the analogy presented is an example of a myriad of happenings and adaptions that lead to an object. Indeed, this points heavily at a process of evolution, as it cleary explains the ability of 'complex' things coming from simple, in a gradual process.

We have a good understanding of how this happens without a 'designer', in chemical reactions and other biological reactions, the theory of evolution as one example.

One of the big problems with the computer analogy is that biological organisms reproduce and carry all of the information necessary to make copies of themselves, whereas a computer does not. It's one thing to conclude that an object which can't make a copy of itself (because it lacks the reproductive capacity and instructions) must have been created, but it doesn't follow that living, reproducing organisms must have been created.

There is however, an extremely good explanation for this in evolution.

There are extremely good explanations in cosmology, chemistry, a myriad of the sciences.

[Goldenmane]

Originally Posted by Veritas

The universe is a complex place. Obviously.

It would need someone to design it. You can't find a computer in the middle of nowhere and say it "just happened".

Why would it need someone to design it? That's a ridiculous fucking claim to found your world-view on without some bloody good evidence.

Speaking of which: do you have any evidence to support the notion of an intelligence/consciousness existing outside of a physical substrate (brain) or time?

[Centauri]

Try doing some research, Veritas.

The Universe was NOT created by "God"

This comes from probably the most intelligent man in the world. He's worked all his life, collecting hard evidence to support his hypotheses.

[Veritas]

@goldenmane: evidence for needing a creator?

It's illogical to claim "shit happens".

Something has to cause something. Things can't just move on their own.

It must have also been an intellect because of the complexity of the universe.

[ABridgeTooFar]

Oh well, God has no properties then. Bye.