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Old 26th April 2009, 06:55 AM
stevewakeford stevewakeford is offline
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Default Pastor Steve Wakeford - Menai Anglican Church, Sydney - One Big Miracle Thread

G'day folks,
Just been reading about your thoughts on the Colin Buchanan DVD about Jesus that's going into all the public schools through this year and felt i had to respond. There's so much i want to say - i hope you'll hear me out and allow my posts in the future to be un-edited - i respect your point of view even if i disagree with it and would ask for the same respect in return.

The separation of church and state has been talked about a lot in this thread and I'm not sure we all understand that that phrase means. Church and state are separate but that doesn't mean that the church can't voice it's opinion on issues. The church can't make laws or regulations - the state does that. But the church can lobby, bring it's case, submit research, protest, encourage people to think about the laws that exist or are being proposed and so on. Atheists are welcome to do exactly the same thing. This is part of what it means to live in a country where we have freedom of religion.

One of the problems is that some folk misunderstand that expression - some folk take it to mean 'freedom from religion'. If you want freedom from religion you need to live somewhere like China or North Korea or a few other places that don't have all the wonderful freedoms we all enjoy.

That DVD about Jesus is actually a pretty good thing. It simply and plainly puts forward what the Bible says about Jesus. What he said; what he did; why he was here, what his death was about and what his resurrection proved. It's just saying the same things the Bible's been saying for thousands of years - just packaged in a way that people who don't know much about it would understand.

The idea is that kids will watch it with their parents. The people who made it aren't trying to brainwash anyone - that's the great thing about being an Aussie - we get to make up our own minds about what we believe. The church can say what it wants to say; Atheists can say what they want to say and the state can say what it wants to say. It's a great freedom we have and it's something that most of the rest of the world doesn't get to enjoy.

Don't be afraid of it. Watch it - with an open mind. It's just possible that you have missed out on something over the years and here's a chance to see why Christians do things like give away tens of thousands of dollars worth of DVDs. It cost a lot of money to make that thing - and i promise that no one involved in making it made a cent! It was done for love - and done so no one missed out on having the opportunity of hearing about Jesus and - here's the big thing - making up their own mind about what they think.

That's the beauty of being an Aussie - no one gets to tell us what to believe. If you want your kids to grow up not hearing about Jesus - that's your right. But what are you afraid of? Why do you wish to make your kids' minds up for them before they get a chance to hear the argument for Christianity? Jesus can bear the weight of thorough, rational examination - he has done so for the past couple of thousand years and shows no sign of slowing down. Please don't deprive people of that basic human right - let them go to scripture class; let them watch the DVD; let them make up their own minds. See, when we take scripture classes out of schools - we make people's minds up for them - and we take that basic human right away.

I'm looking forward to the many discussions that will come - not limited to this particular issue. And if i may quote 'one of your own poets', Voltaire...(loosely quote, that is),
'I might disagree with what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it.' I respect where you guys are coming from, truly. I disagree with you - but defend your right to say what you want to say. Please do me the same courtesy.

Last edited by The Irreverent Mr Black; 16th January 2012 at 04:53 PM. Reason: merged thread title
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Old 26th April 2009, 12:30 PM
Elbert Elbert is offline
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Default Re: Sneaky Public School.

Church and state *are* separate but that doesn't mean that the church can't voice it's opinion on issues.The ‘church’ is a multinational corporation with assets in the billions, and a vested interest in gaining as many adherents as possible. Individual Christians certainly have the right to express their opinions, but vast corporations should not presume to ‘speak’ for individuals. But the church can lobby, bring it's case, submit research, protest, encourage people to think about the laws that exist or are being proposed and so on. You miss the point. A secular state will make laws that suit everyone. A religious corporation wants laws that suit them, regardless of whether they suit non believers.
One of the problems is that some folk misunderstand freedom of religion- some folk take it to mean 'freedom from religion'. You misunderstand... there is no freedom from religion if every religion has the right to indoctrinate children. If you want to live in a theocracy, go and live in Cameroon, in Israel, in Iran, and see if you like living in a theocracy! The ‘wonderful freedoms’ you mention are only possible because we still have some freedom from religion! If you can't understand that, then your brain is addled beyond repair. Have you read about Calvinist Switzerland and Scotland? Do you know anything about the thousand-year papal dictatorship? They were no different from Iran and Saudi Arabia today! If you do know about these atrocities and you still think laws should be based on religious precepts than you are seriously deluded.
That DVD about Jesus... puts forward what the Bible says about Jesus. What he said; what he did; why he was here, what his death was about and what his resurrection proved. It's just saying the same things the Bible's been saying for thousands of years - just packaged in a way that people who don't know much about it would understand. Arghhhhh! There’s no evidence the biblical Jesus existed. There is zero evidence for a resurrection; it is a myth; wishful thinking like the thousands of other religious myths humans have embraced. To make children think it is fact is no better than insisting the earth is flat!
...that's the great thing about being an Aussie - we get to make up our own minds about what we believe. How can a kid make up its mind if parents and teachers are telling them there’s an invisible superman in the sky? Wake up! The church can say what it wants to say; Atheists can say what they want to say But they can't! Schools will not permit other philosophies to be taught in schools. There is no freedom of entry to schools. We’d have no problem accepting a course of comparative religion and philosophy, but that is forbidden.
...and here's a chance to see why Christians do things like give away tens of thousands of dollars worth of DVDs. It cost a lot of money to make that thing -Christians do notgive away anything. They make a great deal of money. Religions do not give charity, they are given tax dollars by the government to disburse, and they are unaccountable for how it is spent, so it is probable they are skimming off the top. Religions are multinational corporations with assets in the hundreds of billions of dollars, making gigantic profits from their schools, hospitals, casinos, manufacturing, rental accommodation, ‘charitable enterprises’, property speculation.... The Anglicans and Uniting make about 2-3 billion, and the Catholics about 12 billion profit annually in Australia, all untaxed, all unaccountable. They got a grant from the government to make that brainwashing video!..... But what are you afraid of? Why do you wish to make your kids' minds up for them before they get a chance to hear the argument for Christianity? Do you want your kids to be given videos about Muslims, Jews, Hindu’s, the other Christian sects? Would you embrace that? Or are you afraid they might not choose your religion if they knew about all the others, and if they also knew that all the freedoms and human values you appear to appreciate were the result of secular humanists legislating against the will of organised religion??? Answer that. See, when we take scripture classes out of schools - we make people's minds up for them - and we take that basic human right away. What utter nonsense! They have parents, they have friends and relations. They have the option of learning about all human thought and endeavor. Force feeding them one brand of religion is the opposite of giving them choice. It is restricting choice. You mention Voltaire. He and the other philosophers of the Enlightenment understood that there was no hope of decency, equality, brotherhood, justice, and fair play for everyone while religion was influencing government. Therefore they abolished it, and from that date social reforms were possible. Established religion has fought tooth and nail against every humanitarian reform ever proposed in the history of humanity. Think on that for a while! Freedom is the absolutely last thing any religion wants for its adherents!
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Old 26th April 2009, 12:38 PM
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Vonnie Vonnie is offline
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Default Re: Sneaky Public School.

Stevewakeford

"Educating" children about Jeebus has no place in our state schools. Private homes and churches, but not our schools.

It is NOT a good thing!

(Apart from the fact that there is absolutely no proof of any kind that Jeebus actually existed, the stories about this alleged person are laughable. Loaves and fishes? Herods murder of the young males? Turning water to wine. Chucking wobblies when he doesn't get his own way? How stupid are people... really.)

Vonnie

PS: And unlike the gracious Mr Black, I take offence at you alluding that my attiude, and that of others like me who have no tolerance for this kind of crap, is unAustralian! doG, how I hate that term and the cop-out excuse that it is! I don't need to watch any fricken DVD. I was a victim of childhood indoctrination of this crap. I know more about Jeebus than most Sunday-only xians! And, unlike the vast majority of them, I've read the entire bible. I went to seminary 5 days a week, and church twice on Sunday. I'm not falling for your passive "just check it out" banter. Been there, done that, and don't need to again because nothing has changed, there is no new information, it's still rubbish.
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Last edited by Vonnie; 26th April 2009 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 26th April 2009, 12:54 PM
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Default Re: Sneaky Public School.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbert View Post
Church and state *are* separate but that doesn't mean that the church can't voice it's opinion on issues.The ‘church’ is a multinational corporation with assets in the billions, and a vested interest in gaining as many adherents as possible. Individual Christians certainly have the right to express their opinions, but vast corporations should not presume to ‘speak’ for individuals. But the church can lobby, bring it's case, submit research, protest, encourage people to think about the laws that exist or are being proposed and so on. You miss the point. A secular state will make laws that suit everyone. A religious corporation wants laws that suit them, regardless of whether they suit non believers.
One of the problems is that some folk misunderstand freedom of religion- some folk take it to mean 'freedom from religion'. You misunderstand... there is no freedom from religion if every religion has the right to indoctrinate children. If you want to live in a theocracy, go and live in Cameroon, in Israel, in Iran, and see if you like living in a theocracy! The ‘wonderful freedoms’ you mention are only possible because we still have some freedom from religion! If you can't understand that, then your brain is addled beyond repair. Have you read about Calvinist Switzerland and Scotland? Do you know anything about the thousand-year papal dictatorship? They were no different from Iran and Saudi Arabia today! If you do know about these atrocities and you still think laws should be based on religious precepts than you are seriously deluded.
That DVD about Jesus... puts forward what the Bible says about Jesus. What he said; what he did; why he was here, what his death was about and what his resurrection proved. It's just saying the same things the Bible's been saying for thousands of years - just packaged in a way that people who don't know much about it would understand. Arghhhhh! There’s no evidence the biblical Jesus existed. There is zero evidence for a resurrection; it is a myth; wishful thinking like the thousands of other religious myths humans have embraced. To make children think it is fact is no better than insisting the earth is flat!
...that's the great thing about being an Aussie - we get to make up our own minds about what we believe. How can a kid make up its mind if parents and teachers are telling them there’s an invisible superman in the sky? Wake up! The church can say what it wants to say; Atheists can say what they want to say But they can't! Schools will not permit other philosophies to be taught in schools. There is no freedom of entry to schools. We’d have no problem accepting a course of comparative religion and philosophy, but that is forbidden.
...and here's a chance to see why Christians do things like give away tens of thousands of dollars worth of DVDs. It cost a lot of money to make that thing -Christians do notgive away anything. They make a great deal of money. Religions do not give charity, they are given tax dollars by the government to disburse, and they are unaccountable for how it is spent, so it is probable they are skimming off the top. Religions are multinational corporations with assets in the hundreds of billions of dollars, making gigantic profits from their schools, hospitals, casinos, manufacturing, rental accommodation, ‘charitable enterprises’, property speculation.... The Anglicans and Uniting make about 2-3 billion, and the Catholics about 12 billion profit annually in Australia, all untaxed, all unaccountable. They got a grant from the government to make that brainwashing video!..... But what are you afraid of? Why do you wish to make your kids' minds up for them before they get a chance to hear the argument for Christianity? Do you want your kids to be given videos about Muslims, Jews, Hindu’s, the other Christian sects? Would you embrace that? Or are you afraid they might not choose your religion if they knew about all the others, and if they also knew that all the freedoms and human values you appear to appreciate were the result of secular humanists legislating against the will of organised religion??? Answer that. See, when we take scripture classes out of schools - we make people's minds up for them - and we take that basic human right away. What utter nonsense! They have parents, they have friends and relations. They have the option of learning about all human thought and endeavor. Force feeding them one brand of religion is the opposite of giving them choice. It is restricting choice. You mention Voltaire. He and the other philosophers of the Enlightenment understood that there was no hope of decency, equality, brotherhood, justice, and fair play for everyone while religion was influencing government. Therefore they abolished it, and from that date social reforms were possible. Established religion has fought tooth and nail against every humanitarian reform ever proposed in the history of humanity. Think on that for a while! Freedom is the absolutely last thing any religion wants for its adherents!
Thank you Elbert...this is the response we needed.
As soon as I read that weasel word 'respect', I knew what we were dealing with here. Respect my arse. Brainwashing of children deserves no respect; and Christianity's own long, long history of 'respect' for others totally forfeits any respect shown in return today. We've had nearly 2000 years of Christian 'respect' for others, and now, buddy, your time is over...
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Old 26th April 2009, 12:57 PM
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Default Re: Sneaky Public School.

And go Vonnie too! shove your bloody DVD where the sun don't shine...stevewakeford
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Old 26th April 2009, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Sneaky Public School.

steve, your religion is a mind virus, that you are targeting children with. Why should religion get precedence over other beliefs? Why can't fishing get equal representation??? I love fishing, I live for it, it consumes me. I want to share the 'word', should I get all the same benefits as religion? Should I not have to pay tax on my profits from fishing, like making lures etc etc?

Really Elbert got in first with a lot of comments, the arrogance shown by people with religion over others is astounding. You should not be able to push your virus in the schoolyards. it's equivalent to saying 'here little Johnny, here's some smack, it doesn't hurt you, it's only those that get the bad stuff, or those that go overboard with it that are dangerous'

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Old 26th April 2009, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: Sneaky Public School.

You know, what actually really pisses me off, is groups that teach children they are guilty of sin from day one, as a method to instill fear in them, and seed religion. They target children directly for this. The same groups that say violence and sex on TV affects children, target them using the same technique of desensitisation. Instilling their mind virus.

Religion goes out of its way to specifically target and take advantage of children in the first 3 stages of cognitive development, before critical thinking has developed. The sooner this is done, the less likely they are to question them as critical thinking develops in the late teen years, especially when it is put forward as the 'unquestionable word of god'. You teach them 'faith' and to automatically dismiss anything that does not fit in the world view that is presented to them, then state that is 'choice'. such hypocrits.










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Old 26th April 2009, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: Sneaky Public School.

... and the ignorance that sees christians think their belief system is any different than any other fundie mind virus is another JOKE.

It’s not like Christianity can lead to fundamentalism like shootings and complicity in military suppression or race hate or radicalism can it? Or threatening anthrax? Or actions that kill like here and here and here and terrorist outfits like here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and these folk or these folk and also here and of course here and these folk that are ready for violent action and like here? or oklahoma? or people that think killing doctors is still ok?

It’s these same concepts that the jesus nuts are propagating as irrefutable fact, that create extremists that get people KILLED.

Just look at Joseph Kony, one of the most powerful Christian leaders in the world.

You may have never heard of his militia, the Lord’s Resistance Army, but they have murdered more people than al Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Hamas combined.

The International Criminal Court indicted Kony on 33 charges – 12 counts of crimes against humanity and 21 counts of war crimes. He helped start a war in Northern Uganda that has lasted over 22 years, claimed tens of thousands of lives, and displaced over two million people, accounting for 90% of the population of northern Uganda. He has abducted over 20,000 children to serve as soldiers or sex slaves, keeping anywhere from 27 to 50 little girls as his own “wives” and forcing many of his “recruits” to slay their own parents as initiation.

His “council” not only includes the Holy Spirit, but a host of dead spirits that speak to him from the great beyond. His original, mostly unsuccessful military fought in cross-shaped formations and used holy water in battle, but the Lord’s Resistance Army has grown into a much more formidable threat, fighting to overthrow the current government and establish a new one based on the Ten Commandments.

The government of Southern Sudan has hosted two years worth of talks between the Ugandan government and the LRA, and just when they seemed ready to reach an agreement in April of 2008, Kony failed to appear to sign the peace treaty, citing fears of arrest or assassination. On Christmas Eve, the LRA slaughtered 189 people and kidnapped 20 children during a celebration sponsored by a Catholic church in Faradje, Democratic Republic of Congo.

make no mistake, jesus KILLS just as much as ALLAH or GOD.
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Old 26th April 2009, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: Sneaky Public School.

"Don't be afraid of it. Watch it - with an open mind. It's just possible that you have missed out on something over the years and here's a chance to see why Christians do things like give away tens of thousands of dollars worth of DVDs. It cost a lot of money to make that thing - and i promise that no one involved in making it made a cent! It was done for love - and done so no one missed out on having the opportunity of hearing about Jesus and - here's the big thing - making up their own mind about what they think."

It was done for love...

Jesus' love:
If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and CHILDREN, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and even his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:26 ( and please don't give me the 'taken out of context' excuse. This is what Jesus SAID).
Do you hate your children Steve? well, you should, because this is what Jesus himself, your Lord told you to do in order to be his. No heaven for you mate, till you reject everything you love, and love and follow only Jesus.
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Old 26th April 2009, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Sneaky Public School.

Here's an idea for some singalong in school ...

Jesus loves the little zygotes

Sung to "Jesus loves the little children"

Jesus loves the little zygotes
All the zygotes of the world
Jesus loves them 'til they're born,
Then abandons them, forlorn
Jesus loves the little zygotes, 'til they're born

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Jesus gives them heart-defects
Measles, mumps, and ring-wormed necks
Jesus loves the little children of the world

Jesus lets their parents beat them
Bruise their bodies, black and blue
Jesus gives them birth-defects,
Scurvy, ticks, and palate-clefts
Jesus loves the little children of the world

Jesus gives the children cancer
Earaches, lice, and scabies, too
Bowel obstructions, ulcered lips
Blighted brains, and twisted hips
Extra-chromosomes to help them when they pray
Hallelujah

Jesus gives the children acne
AIDs and leprosy galore
Germs and worms of every kind
Things to make the children blind
But he cannot give them smallpox anymore

Scientists, and unbelievers
Wiped the 'pox right off the earth
Jesus still gives gifts to kids
Broken nose, and burned eyelids
But he cannot give them smallpox anymore
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