Electricity Costs

[loubert]

Just a update on my pv endeavour.

I have purchased a 3kw system today to be installed in 8 weeks.

Woohoo. finally got a price and system I am hapy with.

[owheelj]

I know this is an old discussion but since it's been bumped I thought I might as well comment.

I don't know how pricing in Queensland works, but in Tasmania we have government owned companies controlling our power distribution and until recently an independent organisation controlling prices (it's been announced in the last few weeks that the government will take over control of setting pricing because of various conflict between the three government owned power companies).

None the less, electricity prices have been rising here dramatically, and I think that's the case across Australia as well. I don't think the price hikes being talked about in this topic are anything to do with private vs government regulation or are a result of poor government decisions. It's possible those things could have some influence, but given that every state in Australia has had electricity price increases this year, it seems like other factors are at play.

I haven't really been studying this issue much, so I don't know specifically what factors are involved, but I think it's probably a combination of a few. Firstly economic conditions would definitely play a role in a multitude of ways. The GFC would have definitely had an impact. I also suspect that demand for electricity is constantly increasing as populations and industry expand and perhaps per capita electricity use is increasing as well (I don't know). Increasing demand obviously creates increases in prices, especially given the delay it takes to increase supply once a power station reaches its limit.

[robertkd]

Well talking to some guys from ergon our local electricity supplier it's part rising cost of business part maintenance/repairs and mostly demand and part of that is capacity during peak demand periods. Selling back into the grid can be very lucrative.

[owheelj]

Originally Posted by The Irreverent Mr Black

@Owheelj: Price trends are on the up here in QLD (I heard 14% this year bandied about).

Your other observations (apart from the supposition parts, which I of course could not confirm) are pretty-well what is happening here too.

This topic is about the rising prices in QLD isn't it? I just meant that I don't know how the price of power in Queensland is determined. Do you have multiple competing providers or a single provider. If you have a single provider, and thus some kind of monopoly, there must be some kind of regulation to ensure they don't charge whatever you want. I suspect that many of the complaints in this topic about the price rising are completely off the mark based just on how the actual system works - but I'm just speculating based on my knowledge of other systems - I don't know the system for QLD.

[loubert]

Originally Posted by owheelj

This topic is about the rising prices in QLD isn't it? I just meant that I don't know how the price of power in Queensland is determined. Do you have multiple competing providers or a single provider. If you have a single provider, and thus some kind of monopoly, there must be some kind of regulation to ensure they don't charge whatever you want. I suspect that many of the complaints in this topic about the price rising are completely off the mark based just on how the actual system works - but I'm just speculating based on my knowledge of other systems - I don't know the system for QLD.

I'm up here in north qld. We only have one provider atm, Ergon which if memory serves corect, is 51% QLD gov owned.(last time i checked) Around the south east, they have far better competition in regards to companys.

Atm I am paying about 0.19c per k/w on tarrif 11 (continous)
and i think it is 0.11 or 12c per k/w on tarrif 33 (economy)
We do have a tarrif 31, i've never used it and have no need for it but i think it only operates for a few (3 or 4) hours a day and is "dirt" cheap.

Any excess (net) produces by my array will be bought back at 0.44c a k/w at a maximum of 10k/w a day.

Atm my energy consumption is averaging at 11-13 k/w a day.

[owheelj]

Originally Posted by The Irreverent Mr Black

@Owheelj: The Queensland Electricity Industry Code is here.

It's deep and involved.

Yeah I'm probably not going to read it :P I hope people who are going to continue the criticisms do though :P

@Loubert - that sounds similar to the situation in Tasmania and the case where the question of privatisation is fairly moot (in terms of prices).

In Tasmania all our power companies are massively in debt, and are losing money on power - hence power prices are about to go up - and why the government took over pricing.

It's all very well to blame governments for rising costs of power, as many people did at the start of this topic, but what's the solution? In Tassie our power companies are already government owned. Could they be run better? I don't know. It's seems possible, and indeed probable, given that it's happening in every state in Australia (and ACT) that the rising costs of power aren't particularly a result of bad government at all. Of course that won't stop disgruntled voters and opposition parties blaming governments, I'm just not convinced that criticism is at all fair.

Personally, and this will expose me as a being very bourgeois, I want power prices to go up a lot anyway. We use way too much electricity unnecessarily and especially given the damage most of it causes (from coal). I think if people really understood the consequences of climate change, and they were going to happen in our lifetimes instead of over the next millennium or so people would give up coal almost immediately and put up with the consequences of hardly any electricity for a long time (and the economic collapse). Instead we're just postponing dealing with the problem and making it worse.

[kanook]

Originally Posted by owheelj

It's seems possible, and indeed probable, given that it's happening in every state in Australia (and ACT) that the rising costs of power aren't particularly a result of bad government at all. Of course that won't stop disgruntled voters and opposition parties blaming governments, I'm just not convinced that criticism is at all fair.

I dont know what happened in the past in other states but it was common knowledge here in Qld that the State Govt always drained a vast majority of elec profits out of the grid and used it elsewhere. That left very little in the Company which resulted in limited maintenance on the grid. The Govt could have kept total control of the grid and fixed the issues themselves but no , they decided to palm off the issue to a free market, and as i have mentioned before as mentioned in "The Smartest Guys In The Room", "A free market is God Damned expensive"

I disagree with the argument that rising demand must result in rising cost? If there is a limited number of something and a lot of people want that item then price will increase, but the rise in population also means the rise of people buying electricity, the result is more money going into elec company coffers. You must remember the population has been growing all the time, population booms are not something new and yet we always had affordable electricity.

Originally Posted by owheelj

Personally, and this will expose me as a being very bourgeois, I want power prices to go up a lot anyway. We use way too much electricity unnecessarily and especially given the damage most of it causes (from coal). I think if people really understood the consequences of climate change, and they were going to happen in our lifetimes instead of over the next millennium or so people would give up coal almost immediately and put up with the consequences of hardly any electricity for a long time (and the economic collapse). Instead we're just postponing dealing with the problem and making it worse.

I agree that mankind cannot keep pumping crap into the atmosphere without causing severe damage, but you must know we have no choice at present, coal or gas fired power stations are it at present for electricity generation. Solar technology is not at a level that allows for complete replacement of coal or gas, and we dont want Nuke Power!

To increase elec costs to a point that makes it completely unaffordable would result in incredible suffering, starvation, death tolls etc. If we cant afford elec we cant afford to process food, store food, sell food. I would love to see the day that we no longer burn fossil fuel, but you have to be a realist and know that at present our entire life is dependent on them, i disagree that people would put up with the consequences of the collapse of society that would be caused from stopping the use of fossil fuels.

I for one get very upset when I see images on TV of elderly pensioners almost in tears because they cant work out how they will pay for elec, also the other members of our society, the unemployed, low income workers etc they still have to try and raise a family and pay bills.

I dont believe that those who are on low income, pension or unemployment actually waste electricity, they actually try to save electricity and live their lives very conscious of costs, I believe it is high income earners that waste more electricity, but those in need will suffer alot more from elec price increases than high income earners. Also please remember that low income workers, pensioners, renters etc probably will not be the ones buying Solar panels for the roof as the cost is out of reach, higher income earners can afford them so they will benefit.

[kanook]

Originally Posted by owheelj

Do you have multiple competing providers or a single provider. If you have a single provider, and thus some kind of monopoly, there must be some kind of regulation to ensure they don't charge whatever you want. I suspect that many of the complaints in this topic about the price rising are completely off the mark based just on how the actual system works - but I'm just speculating based on my knowledge of other systems - I don't know the system for QLD.

I live in regional Qld and we have only one provider available to us. You are right when you say there must be some regulation but you must also realise that if you have a choice there is a chance you may have some bargaining power to gain a better deal, if your choice is limited to a single company you are left with no bargaining power at all.

[owheelj]

But if it's the fault of the government, is every state government in Australia also at fault? Why have prices been rising across the country? Is the QLD government to blame for that too?

[Lilith]

Originally Posted by owheelj

But if it's the fault of the government, is every state government in Australia also at fault? Why have prices been rising across the country? Is the QLD government to blame for that too?

Have you seen the shifty faces on the current Qld government? Wouldn't surprise me at all ..They probably shot JFK and have Jimmy Hoffa squirreled away somewhere too.