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  #1  
Old 20th March 2010, 05:06 PM
phil phil is offline
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Default Hi from a believer interested in discussion

Hi guys,

I have been a Christian for around 14 years. I am interested in engaging in discussion/debate to broaden and deepen my understanding. I have had discussions with atheists in different areas on the net and have found it thought provoking. I am not interested in emotionally charged, irrational debate (have done plenty of that in the past ).

I have a strong interest in science, although I am not a scientist and I don't necessarily believe that science is the key to believing/not believing...just as science cannot provide the answer to many of life's important questions.

I am interested in the following discussions:
1. Intelligent Design
2. Morality
3. History

These are outlined below.

I am interested in discussion about why intelligent design and universe tuning is not considered as evidence. The fact that the world is such and amazing, beautiful place. That the science behind life is so amazingly complicated and intelligent, far beyond anything we could ever create ourselves (even though we are highly intelligent beings). To have such a level of awareness to ask the questions beyond survival of 'why am I here?', 'what is my purpose?', 'what is right and wrong?'.

Morality is also an interesting discussion. I have read some atheists saying that they don't need some holy book to be a good person or to not murder someone. I agree. I was a 'good' person before I became a Christian (I didn't murder, lie (much), beat people, etc), but I can say that by becoming a Christian, I have become a better person than I was. (hmm what does 'better' mean??? It's a good question).

I am also interested in historical arguments. How did Christianity come about? Why were the apostle's willing to be tortured and die for the sake of a lie (they would have known first hand if Jesus raised from the dead, or they spread the lie that that is what he said.).

But to be honest science is not my primary reason for believing. My faith has grown from seeing Jesus teachings being true in my life. (John 8:31-32). That when I made a decision to follow his teachings I could see everything with more clarity. I felt like I had poor vision and didn't know it until someone gave me corrective lenses. Yes, this is subjective and not 'scientific proof'.

Hope this finds you well. Looking forward to hearing from people interested in discussing.

Phil
  #2  
Old 20th March 2010, 06:57 PM
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atheist_angel atheist_angel is offline
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Default Re: Hi from a believer interested in discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil View Post
I am interested in engaging in discussion/debate to broaden and deepen my understanding.
Welcome Phil.

It seems you have a lot of questions. It also seems you brought all on your own answers with you. To be honest, I don't think there is much hope in boardening your understanding.

Good Luck, anyway!

-Angel
Quote:
I am interested in discussion about why intelligent design and universe tuning is not considered as evidence.
Quote:
The fact that the world is such and amazing, beautiful place. That the science behind life is so amazingly complicated and intelligent, far beyond anything we could ever create ourselves (even though we are highly intelligent beings). To have such a level of awareness to ask the questions beyond survival of 'why am I here?', 'what is my purpose?', 'what is right and wrong?'.
Quote:
Morality is also an interesting discussion. I have read some atheists saying that they don't need some holy book to be a good person or to not murder someone. I agree. I was a 'good' person before I became a Christian (I didn't murder, lie (much), beat people, etc), but I can say that by becoming a Christian, I have become a better person than I was. (hmm what does 'better' mean??? It's a good question).
Quote:
I am also interested in historical arguments. How did Christianity come about? Why were the apostle's willing to be tortured and die for the sake of a lie (they would have known first hand if Jesus raised from the dead, or they spread the lie that that is what he said.).
Quote:
But to be honest science is not my primary reason for believing. My faith has grown from seeing Jesus teachings being true in my life. (John 8:31-32). That when I made a decision to follow his teachings I could see everything with more clarity. I felt like I had poor vision and didn't know it until someone gave me corrective lenses. Yes, this is subjective and not 'scientific proof'.
  #3  
Old 20th March 2010, 07:02 PM
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askegg askegg is offline
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Default Re: Hi from a believer interested in discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil View Post
The fact that the world is such and amazing, beautiful place.
It's also terrifying, horrid, and evil. What does this design point to? In any case, can you give me a metric for design?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil View Post
That the science behind life is so amazingly complicated and intelligent, far beyond anything we could ever create ourselves (even though we are highly intelligent beings).
Therefore God? Is God at all complex? If so, then the same rationale should be applied to God himself - where did he come from?

Also, just because we do not know everything yet does not mean some super magic man did it. You are executing the argument from ignorance - a God of the gaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil View Post
To have such a level of awareness to ask the questions beyond survival of 'why am I here?', 'what is my purpose?', 'what is right and wrong?'.
First, please explain why there must be a purpose, then we can discuss where it might derive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil View Post
Morality is also an interesting discussion. I have read some atheists saying that they don't need some holy book to be a good person or to not murder someone. I agree. I was a 'good' person before I became a Christian (I didn't murder, lie (much), beat people, etc), but I can say that by becoming a Christian, I have become a better person than I was. (hmm what does 'better' mean??? It's a good question).
Err - not much to add to this. You did not make a point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil View Post
I am also interested in historical arguments. How did Christianity come about?
How did any religion start?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil View Post
Why were the apostle's willing to be tortured and die for the sake of a lie (they would have known first hand if Jesus raised from the dead, or they spread the lie that that is what he said.).
Either *believed* the story was true, or the entire story is a myth. You do not think people will kill, suffer, or commit suicide based on irrational beliefs? There are plenty of examples of all of these - does the "fact" these apparent events happened 2,000 years ago in another country rife with uneducated, ignorant people make it more believable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil View Post
But to be honest science is not my primary reason for believing. My faith has grown from seeing Jesus teachings being true in my life. (John 8:31-32). That when I made a decision to follow his teachings I could see everything with more clarity. I felt like I had poor vision and didn't know it until someone gave me corrective lenses. Yes, this is subjective and not 'scientific proof'.
Thus useless to me or anyone else. If you cannot demonstrate your claims, they have no value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil View Post
Hope this finds you well. Looking forward to hearing from people interested in discussing.
Phil
No problem.
  #4  
Old 20th March 2010, 08:17 PM
nari nari is offline
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Default Re: Hi from a believer interested in discussion

Quote:
The fact that the world is such and amazing, beautiful place. That the science behind life is so amazingly complicated and intelligent, far beyond anything we could ever create ourselves (even though we are highly intelligent beings). To have such a level of awareness to ask the questions beyond survival of 'why am I here?', 'what is my purpose?', 'what is right and wrong?'.
I find this quite confusing.
Quote:
The science behind life is so amazingly complicated and intelligent, far beyond anything we could ever create ourselves...
Of course it is far beyond anything we could create. We're twigs on a large tree of life and there is a lot behind science (as we see it) we don't and may never understand. To assume we are so brilliant as a species is naivety...
Quote:
What is my purpose?
Ummm... when a sperm finds its way into an ovum, the result is mostly another person. It's reproduction, and is universal through various means.
It's fairly clear the purpose is to preserve the specie, nothing more or less.

If science cannot provide all the answers you want, how does admiring an imaginary friend do it? I'm curious...

nari
  #5  
Old 20th March 2010, 09:04 PM
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Made Of Stars Made Of Stars is offline
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Default Re: Hi from a believer interested in discussion

Hi Phil.

ID deifies ignorance.

Fine-tuning doesn't account for the 99.99999999999999999999% of the universe that is implacably hostile to life.

The biblical God is the most immoral character in all of fiction.

But that's just my opinion.

Welcome to the forum.
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Last edited by Made Of Stars; 20th March 2010 at 09:11 PM.
  #6  
Old 20th March 2010, 09:22 PM
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Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
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Default Re: Hi from a believer interested in discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil View Post
Hi guys,
Hello Phil, welcome aboard

Quote:
I have been a Christian for around 14 years. I am interested in engaging in discussion/debate to broaden and deepen my understanding. I have had discussions with atheists in different areas on the net and have found it thought provoking. I am not interested in emotionally charged, irrational debate (have done plenty of that in the past ).
Sounds good.

Quote:
I have a strong interest in science, although I am not a scientist and I don't necessarily believe that science is the key to believing/not believing...just as science cannot provide the answer to many of life's important questions.
True, science cannot answer everything. Science is about discovering nature. Some questions cannot be asked in a scientific manner. Lastly, there are questions which may not have an answer. This applies specially to certain "why" or "purpose" questions. Science is not a belief system, it is a methodology, and a body of knowledge gained from those methodologies.
There are pre-suppositions in science, which I suppose could be called metaphysical, although not all metaphysics is rational. Nevertheless, the assumptions of science do seem to hold, because science works.

Religions [of any type] are even worse at answering some of life's questions than science. [eg Of the why is evil type]. Science uses evidence and reason in a particular way to avoid confirmation bias. All theologies that I know of pre-suppose [as fact] that god or some other supernaturalism exists. The minute one puts faith ahead of evidence and reason, the more one can make a mistake of fact or theory.

Quote:
I am interested in the following discussions:
1. Intelligent Design
2. Morality
3. History
1, One is a non-starter.....it is rubbish.

These are outlined below.

Quote:
I am interested in discussion about why intelligent design and universe tuning is not considered as evidence. The fact that the world is such and amazing, beautiful place. That the science behind life is so amazingly complicated and intelligent, far beyond anything we could ever create ourselves (even though we are highly intelligent beings). To have such a level of awareness to ask the questions beyond survival of 'why am I here?', 'what is my purpose?', 'what is right and wrong?'.
ID is non-parimonious. Show me a Cheetah with wheels, and I will take it seriously. You don't get Cheetah with wheels because it is out of the design space of Natural selection. You DO get bacterial flagella because natural selection can filter mutations to build a flagella via intermediate steps, all of which work.

Quote:
Morality is also an interesting discussion. I have read some atheists saying that they don't need some holy book to be a good person or to not murder someone. I agree. I was a 'good' person before I became a Christian (I didn't murder, lie (much), beat people, etc), but I can say that by becoming a Christian, I have become a better person than I was. (hmm what does 'better' mean??? It's a good question).
Atheists may differ from theists on their morals, because what is seen as moral in religious books may not be moral when examined by reason and evidence. It is probably better to start different threads on each topic.

Quote:
I am also interested in historical arguments. How did Christianity come about? Why were the apostle's willing to be tortured and die for the sake of a lie (they would have known first hand if Jesus raised from the dead, or they spread the lie that that is what he said.).
Ditto.
Quote:
But to be honest science is not my primary reason for believing. My faith has grown from seeing Jesus teachings being true in my life. (John 8:31-32). That when I made a decision to follow his teachings I could see everything with more clarity. I felt like I had poor vision and didn't know it until someone gave me corrective lenses. Yes, this is subjective and not 'scientific proof'.
Or might you have "poor vision" due to confirmation bias. As an intellectual exercise, try arguing against gods and religion. I have done both, as I was once a theist.

Quote:
Hope this finds you well. Looking forward to hearing from people interested in discussing.

Phil
[/QUOTE]

And health to you Phil. Good luck with your investigations. I am intersted in such discussions, but as I said above, separate threads would make it easier and more practical.
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  #7  
Old 20th March 2010, 09:53 PM
Seamus Seamus is offline
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Default Re: Hi from a believer interested in discussion

Quote:
I am interested in discussion about why intelligent design and universe tuning is not considered as evidence.

That question suggests very strongly that you have no genuine interest in learning anything. Had you bothered to learn the meaning of the word 'evidence' you would be incapable of asking such a stunningly ignorant and stupid question

To be blunt; I don't believe your stated agenda. I think you are just another willfully ignorant and intellectually dishonest apologist.

Perhaps try your luck at 'Raving Atheist Forum'. They'll be just thrilled to hear from you (just use the same post)
  #8  
Old 20th March 2010, 09:55 PM
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Loki Loki is online now
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Default Re: Hi from a believer interested in discussion

Here we go again, I've asked this question of several visitors now, and none will give me an answer. I wonder why.

Do you accept the existence of Quetzalcoatl, the Aztec god of the wind?
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  #9  
Old 21st March 2010, 02:36 AM
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Default Re: Hi from a believer interested in discussion

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Do you accept the existence of Quetzalcoatl, the Aztec god of the wind?
Isn't he also the Aztec god of refried beans?
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  #10  
Old 21st March 2010, 02:40 AM
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Annie Annie is offline
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Default Re: Hi from a believer interested in discussion

Hi Believer. Hope you like coconuts and palm trees. Please don't go down the same road as many other visitors to this forum have done. My advice is, while you would like your questions answered, to be fair, you need to answer our questions. Remember, you are on an atheist forum, not in a church. We don't subscribe to baseless rhetoric. Sorry if Im stating the obvious but what seems obvious to us is apparently not so obvious to many visitors.


Last edited by The Irreverent Mr Black; 21st March 2010 at 02:53 AM.
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