"Indisputable Evidence of Evolution"?

Phew! I'm exhausted.

I've just had an extended debate with a committed Jehovah's Witness.

I should have realised that I was really wasting my time because, among other things, he maintained that the Bible is the absolute truth and justified the need for God to access Adam's rib in the creation of Eve, by saying that God needed Adam's DNA!

Anyway, as you might expect, he is a firm advocate of "Intelligent Design" and refused to accept evolution as a credible alternative.

We parted with him saying that he would see me again and challenging me to present him with some "indisputable evidence" in support of evolution.

Where to begin? Frankly, I don't think anything will shake his faith in the Bible but I came away wondering if there was some way.

Without getting into a long convoluted argument, how can I convince him that Evolution is "indisputable"?

[NakedApe]

You can't.

He is arguing from a position of faith which is non negotiable, so there really is no "debate".

You can spend all day clubbing this guy over the head with reason and logic. It won't make any difference, he's not actually interested in anything you've got to say unless as a platform for him to proselytise from and at the end you'll walk away frustrated and angry and he'll walk away feeling as though he's scored some sort of moral victory.

Debating theists? Just don't do it.

[Loki]

Ask him what he does with his appendix?

It is a problem, how to describe reality assuming no previous contact.

Ask if he can see how the echidna and the kangaroo have many things in common, yet the kangaroo is a progression fron the echidna model. Likewise the step from kangaroo to cow.

Probably not simple enough.

[davo]

Speciation is evolution.

Speciation is The 'Origin of species'. Darwin talks about one mechanism of evolution, natural selection that picks and chooses from genetic drift and gene flow.

There are observed instances of speciation, here is indisputable, observed evidence :

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

This leads us to the huge amount of evidence of evolution at a larger scale that across all major disciplines of science.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc

Thus, to show that speciation and further divergence that the overwhelming evidence shows us does not occur, one must identify what stops speciation from occuring beyond a 'certain point'. We are seeing evolution in action, this is indisputable, ID'ers however are trying to say 'it only happens to a certain point'

Well why? what is it that 'stops' evolution?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Interesting post there.

Originally Posted by Phroso

Phew! I'm exhausted.

I've just had an extended debate with a committed Jehovah's Witness.

Now remember: STOP REVIVE SURVIVE

Originally Posted by Phroso

I should have realised that I was really wasting my time because, among other things, he maintained that the Bible is the absolute truth and justified the need for God to access Adam's rib in the creation of Eve, by saying that God needed Adam's DNA!

Just remember that if God had needed Adam's DNA then he didn't have to rip off an entire rib for that. In fact he could have been a nice god and plucked one of his hairs off or something.

But then again that wouldn't make for much of an Action Sci-fi setting he was trying to achieve.

Originally Posted by Phroso

Anyway, as you might expect, he is a firm advocate of "Intelligent Design" and refused to accept evolution as a credible alternative.

I always wondered why it was called "Intelligent Design" as clearly the "designer" is not so intelligent and/or maybe he doesn't keep his documentation up-to-date or something.

Originally Posted by Phroso

We parted with him saying that he would see me again and challenging me to present him with some "indisputable evidence" in support of evolution.

One thing you can tell him to do is ask a doctor what happens if you take too little antibiotic. The bacteria will gain resistance. This is not magic and here is a rough summary of the procedure:

1. A colony of bacteria is given too little antibiotic to kill the lot
2. Some bacteria that are weak will die due to antibiotic
3. Some that are strong will reproduce
4. Cycle repeats

And there is a fine example of natural selection.

There are many experimentsfor evolution including the E. coli long-term evolution experiment that has confirmed this. This can be used as irrefutable evidence.

Originally Posted by Phroso

Where to begin? Frankly, I don't think anything will shake his faith in the Bible but I came away wondering if there was some way.

Without getting into a long convoluted argument, how can I convince him that Evolution is "indisputable"?

Don't think I would bother trying to "shake his faith" off. It will probably not work. And why should you care unless you know him that well?

[Dan Gleibitz]

Debating JWs is pointless.

I had a look at Watchtower the other day. Their tune hasn't changed, and it never will. The cover was inviting, perhaps even interesting...

"Do you want to know the truth about _____?"

Inside: "Do you want to know the truth about _____? Here's what the bible says..."

Even worse is that they answer questions about god, jehovah and the bible with the same "Here's what the bible tells us....".

That's not interesting, it's insulting. How can I not be offended when you ask me to switch off my brain? How can the faithful?

[Loki]

You would need something incontrivertable and totally obvious you could place directly under his nose, there is no such thing. The fact that whale's fins retain the bones of the fingers is too abstract. Antibiotic resistance is good but even that is too complicated for some.

If he actually wanted to know, he would by now.

[zebba]

Best evidence is dogs and cats, IMO. Our domesticated pets bear no resemblance to their original forms.

If he claims that there is no evidence for evolution between "kinds", punch him in the face.

[wolty]

@Phroso, I am not too sure that this approach is good for your mental health. JW's don't come to my door and if they do I am rarely home. I thought it would be good to have a discussion about life, the universe and everything but now I am not so sure. I don't think anything you say will make any difference.
What I will do now is just make one point and leave it at that, along the lines of what Mr Black said once " ask him if his god talks to him" or maybe make the point that he is wasting his life in a one way relationship.

But I would never be able to keep my cool after loads of shite, so one point is all I am ever going to make.

[Godless Ray]

You know the difficulty here isn't finding or presenting evidence, its the ability of him being able to understand the evidence.

Now your an intelligent guy.. You know stuff about evidence? He was in your place selling you on the supernatural how come your the one now defending?

Say your prepared to become one and get the haircut and white shirt, but first its that little matter of evidence..

Godless Ray