Go Back   AFA Forums > Atheism > General Chit Chat About Atheism

General Chit Chat About Atheism Something on your mind?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 21st January 2018, 05:07 PM
SEG's Avatar
SEG SEG is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Hills District of Sydney
Posts: 708
Default If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

Back in 2013, Cardinal Pell declared publicly that the Adam and Eve story was a myth. See around 32:40 in this Q and A debate with Richard Dawkins:



If it was a myth, how do Catholics reconcile the concept of Original Sin? Dawkins pressed this also, but the question was pushed aside, letting Pell off the hook. If there was no Original Sin, then Jesus did not need to die on the cross and the wheels fall off their faith.

Does anyone know how they account for this?

Last edited by SEG; 21st January 2018 at 05:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
Like knowledge is power liked this post
  #2  
Old 21st January 2018, 05:56 PM
Darwinsbulldog's Avatar
Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Perth
Posts: 18,831
Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

Quote:
SEG said View Post
Back in 2013, Cardinal Pell declared publicly that the Adam and Eve story was a myth. See around 32:40 in this Q and A debate with Richard Dawkins:



If it was a myth, how do Catholics reconcile the concept of Original Sin? Dawkins pressed this also, but the question was pushed aside, letting Pell off the hook. If there was no Original Sin, then Jesus did not need to die on the cross and the wheels fall off their faith.

Does anyone know how they account for this?
Sorry, I just can't listen to that arrogant Catholic.
__________________
Just stick to the idea that science tests falsifiable hypotheses to destruction.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 21st January 2018, 06:38 PM
SEG's Avatar
SEG SEG is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Hills District of Sydney
Posts: 708
Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

Quote:
Darwinsbulldog said View Post
Sorry, I just can't listen to that arrogant Catholic.
Yeah I don't blame you, he grinds on my nerves too. I hope they sink him in court where he belongs.
Reply With Quote
Like Darwinsbulldog liked this post
  #4  
Old 21st January 2018, 07:07 PM
pipbarber's Avatar
pipbarber pipbarber is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,129
Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

I have no idea how they account for it Seg, but it is a good point you make and i too would be interested in the reasoning employed.

Perhaps, they invent some irrational explanation? No, no...that can't be right!
__________________
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Reply With Quote
Like SEG liked this post
Laugh at Darwinsbulldog, wolty laughed at this post
  #5  
Old 22nd January 2018, 08:15 AM
stylofone's Avatar
stylofone stylofone is offline
I am no feeble Christ, not me.
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

Some parts of hte story are literally true, other parts are symbolic. Sometimes they just change the category. So the Adam and Eve story is just a tool to explain original sin, but it didn't really happen.

There always a huge debate about nearly everything, some Christians believe it's all literally true, others are pretty easygoing about it. Schisms and wars can ensue from such disagreements.

Catholics have to have things codified, and the Pope is the ultimate authority if arguments need to be settled. The virgin birth is a hot topic, a lot of Christians just can't accept such a blatant piece of bullshit. Unfortunately for Catholics experiencing a little glimmer of reason in this regard, the Pope has been unequivocal... Jesus was a sperm-free baby.

The whole thing is so bizarre, I'm amazed that Christianity even exists. There shouldn't even be any need for the AFA. But there really really is!
Reply With Quote
Like wolty, Soup Dragon liked this post
Thank SEG thanked this post
  #6  
Old 22nd January 2018, 08:29 AM
stylofone's Avatar
stylofone stylofone is offline
I am no feeble Christ, not me.
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,192
Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

The other thing I thought about this is just how inarticulate and intellectually unimpressive Pell was. Dawkins wasn't at his best, but Pell was hopeless. He seemed flustered and didn't explain his own dogma very well. I assume he was so arrogant, he just felt god was on his side and he didn't need to prepare, even when up against someone of the stature and reputation of Richard Dawkins. Then you realise Pell is in his position not because of intellect, but because it's a political game and he's managed to work his way to the top of the pile. As Donald Trump has proved, there are other skills besides intellect and reason to get you to the top.
Reply With Quote
Like SEG, knowledge is power liked this post
  #7  
Old 22nd January 2018, 11:39 AM
142857's Avatar
142857 142857 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,273
Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

I attended Catholic schools from 1970 until 1982.

We were never taught that Adam and Eve was a factually accurate account.

In fact I remember some teachers laughing about past instances of parents writing letters to the school complaining about the teaching of evolution at a Catholic school.

We were also never taught about original sin. I never even knew what original sin was until my youngest brother joined a very fundamentalist Baptist Church as a teenager (he is now an atheist, thank God). The concept of mortal sin was mentioned maybe once or twice, and even then it was kind of wishy-washy (as in there was always the possibility of forgiveness).

What was always important and drummed into us was that Jesus died for our sins, that Jesus was God, that during the sacrament of communion we literally ate Jesus' body and drank His blood.

The reality is that very few people in the Catholic Church even consider things like Original Sin any more. Most accept the science behind evolution and accept that Earth and the universe are billions of years old. Most do not believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literally true.
Reply With Quote
Thank SEG thanked this post
  #8  
Old 22nd January 2018, 06:10 PM
SEG's Avatar
SEG SEG is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Hills District of Sydney
Posts: 708
Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

Quote:
142857 said View Post
What was always important and drummed into us was that Jesus died for our sins, that Jesus was God, that during the sacrament of communion we literally ate Jesus' body and drank His blood.
I actually asked a client who is a Catholic primary school teacher today about whether he believes the Eucharist sacrament was the literal body and blood of Christ or whether it was just symbolic. He looked at me sheepishly as though he had been caught out and said it was only symbolic.

I congratulated him for being so honest (though I suspected he feigned his faith).
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22nd January 2018, 06:21 PM
Strato's Avatar
Strato Strato is online now
What Me Deluded?
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The Bellarine, Geelong.
Posts: 5,732
Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

As far as I can find on the webz, Catholic dogma still upholds Adam and Eve and Original Sin even though evolution has been granted some indulgence. Well they can't very well not accommodate it, can they? After all they don't want to be associated with Protestant creationists, give them any quarter.

Pope Pius X11's encyclical letter 1950 is a study in typical Catholic obscurantism. Authoritarian, dogmatic. They simply pass over their theological dilemma, decline to try and explain their way out of their predicament. Adam and Eve doesn't square with evolution. They take a pass on reading a proper book on the subject. It is irrelevant to them. Pell always was of this mindset. Extraordinary arrogance. They are all sus.

But Catholic secondary colleges and universities must teach evolution if they are going to teach modern science more or less properly. The contradiction isn't discussed, the elephant in the room. Don't think about it.

These teachers live with their cognitive dissonance, existential inauthenticity.
__________________
We can know something only if it is both true and knowable, Thinking Fast and Slow, Daniel Kahneman, 2011.
Reply With Quote
Like SEG, 142857 liked this post
Thank SEG thanked this post
  #10  
Old 22nd January 2018, 06:22 PM
SEG's Avatar
SEG SEG is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Hills District of Sydney
Posts: 708
Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

Quote:
stylofone said View Post
The other thing I thought about this is just how inarticulate and intellectually unimpressive Pell was. Dawkins wasn't at his best, but Pell was hopeless. He seemed flustered and didn't explain his own dogma very well. I assume he was so arrogant, he just felt god was on his side and he didn't need to prepare, even when up against someone of the stature and reputation of Richard Dawkins.
I had a chuckle when the host asked him whether he believed that we evolved from apes and he said, "from Neanderthals, yes". Dawkins pressed him on this and said, "Neanderthals??!" and he said, "Probably. Who else did you have in mind? Dawkins then said we didn't evolve from them, they're our cousins! Pell stupidly said "Extant cousins"?
Reply With Quote
Like Strato liked this post
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 01:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.