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  #31  
Old 21st December 2017, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: Religious Freedom review

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joele said View Post
Sorry haven't read the whole thread, I may be repeating what others have said....

This may come across as testy. Sorry.


For the fourth? Fifth? time I am not talking about specific legal accommodations for religious law. I'm talking about religious practice and arrangements within the existing frameworks of secular law.
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  #32  
Old 21st December 2017, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: Religious Freedom review

Quote:
wearestardust said View Post
This may come across as testy. Sorry.


For the fourth? Fifth? time I am not talking about specific legal accommodations for religious law. I'm talking about religious practice and arrangements within the existing frameworks of secular law.
sorry if I misunderstood, but I thought when you said

Quote:
I'm not sure I have an enormous problem with sharia law as a private arrangement provided that it does not conflict with secular law. Which effectively means, so long as it is optional and non-enforceable except by consent
my example of jewish law where the couple voluntarily agree to have the divorce hearing in the jewish court (beth din), as currently is possible in Australia, does fit that description?

It is by consent (though social pressure in an insular community perverts that consent IMHO) and it is not really conflicting with secular law, i.e. if the couple agree to the Beth Din hearing their dispute/divorce, there is nothing forcing a fair outcome (by our secular standards), and nothing really breaking secular law so to speak.
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Last edited by joele; 21st December 2017 at 04:37 PM.
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  #33  
Old 21st December 2017, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Religious Freedom review

I wonder if there is any need to pass any more laws regarding religious freedom?

It is already accepted that everyone in this country can practise whatever religion they choose so long as those religious activities do not contravene Australian law. Thus, practises like Islamic genital mutilation are illegal and Jehova's Witnesses refusing life-saving surgery or blood transfusions for children can have their children placed in state care to ensure they get the necessary treatment.

Most concerns about the same-sex marriage issue seem to centre around a fear that people with strong views about homosexuality may be forced to serve homosexual couples against their will. The baker refusing to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple is the usual example given but just how likely is this and if it happened, would the happy couple not just choose another baker? I can hardly see anyone launching a court case over this.

So far as Churches are concerned, they already refuse marriage and other sacraments to people who are not regular attendees or do not agree to follow their rules so there is no need for any new laws to let them refuse to perform marriages for same-sex couples if homosexuality contravenes their rules.

As to Sharia, or Jewish religious laws, if people of those faiths agree to have their disagreements mediated by the church instead of by the Australian courts where is the harm? If the loser is not happy with the outcome he or she can still take it to Court and the Court's decision will override the religious body's ruling.

I believe the matter of "extra legal protection" was just another device by the "religious right" to try to delay passing the same-sex marriage bill.
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  #34  
Old 21st December 2017, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Religious Freedom review

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madmick said View Post
I wonder if there is any need to pass any more laws regarding religious freedom?

It is already accepted that everyone in this country can practise whatever religion they choose so long as those religious activities do not contravene Australian law. Thus, practises like Islamic genital mutilation are illegal and Jehova's Witnesses refusing life-saving surgery or blood transfusions for children can have their children placed in state care to ensure they get the necessary treatment.

Most concerns about the same-sex marriage issue seem to centre around a fear that people with strong views about homosexuality may be forced to serve homosexual couples against their will. The baker refusing to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple is the usual example given but just how likely is this and if it happened, would the happy couple not just choose another baker? I can hardly see anyone launching a court case over this.

So far as Churches are concerned, they already refuse marriage and other sacraments to people who are not regular attendees or do not agree to follow their rules so there is no need for any new laws to let them refuse to perform marriages for same-sex couples if homosexuality contravenes their rules.

As to Sharia, or Jewish religious laws, if people of those faiths agree to have their disagreements mediated by the church instead of by the Australian courts where is the harm? If the loser is not happy with the outcome he or she can still take it to Court and the Court's decision will override the religious body's ruling.

I believe the matter of "extra legal protection" was just another device by the "religious right" to try to delay passing the same-sex marriage bill.
Whilst i agree with this i'd question the wisdom of the bit i've highlighted. As was pointed out above it's doubtful a vulnerable, read female, member of a strict Islamic or Jewish family would really have the capacity to ignore a sharia, or Jewish court, ruling and go to a secular court without it potentially causing major life upheaval.

To empower, even in a very limited way, a religious court is, in my view, a tacit acknowledgment of the basic legitimacy of said religion. We do not need to give myths a real world pillar to lounge against, in my view.
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  #35  
Old 22nd December 2017, 04:49 AM
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Default Re: Religious Freedom review



'I'm not going to put up with it any more': Morrison vows to defend Christianity in 2018

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Scott Morrison says he will fight back against discrimination and mockery of Christians and other religious groups in 2018, in comments that position him as one of the leading religious conservatives in the Turnbull government.

Mr Morrison also promised to play a leading role next year in the debate about enshrining further "protections" for religious freedom in law ...



... in a year-ending interview with Fairfax Media, he declared that "it all starts when you allow religious freedoms [to be eroded], mockery to be made of your faith or your religious festivals – it always starts innocently and it's always said it is just a joke – just like most discrimination does".

"And I'm just gonna call that out. With what I've seen happen in the last year, I've just taken the decision more recently, I'm just not going to put up with that any more, I don't think my colleagues are either."

"Where I think people are being offensive to religion in this country – whichever religion that might be, but particularly the one I and many other Christians subscribe to – well, we will just call it out and we will demand the same respect that people should provide to all religions."

...
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  #36  
Old 22nd December 2017, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: Religious Freedom review

Time for a pity party eh?
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  #37  
Old 22nd December 2017, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Religious Freedom review

I was thinking it was time for more mockery, whoops. My bad.
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  #38  
Old 22nd December 2017, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Religious Freedom review

Quote:
Blue Lightning said View Post


'I'm not going to put up with it any more': Morrison vows to defend Christianity in 2018

Quote:
Scott Morrison says he will fight back against discrimination and mockery of Christians and other religious groups in 2018, in comments that position him as one of the leading religious conservatives in the Turnbull government.

Mr Morrison also promised to play a leading role next year in the debate about enshrining further "protections" for religious freedom in law ...



... in a year-ending interview with Fairfax Media, he declared that "it all starts when you allow religious freedoms [to be eroded], mockery to be made of your faith or your religious festivals – it always starts innocently and it's always said it is just a joke – just like most discrimination does".

"And I'm just gonna call that out. With what I've seen happen in the last year, I've just taken the decision more recently, I'm just not going to put up with that any more, I don't think my colleagues are either."

"Where I think people are being offensive to religion in this country – whichever religion that might be, but particularly the one I and many other Christians subscribe to – well, we will just call it out and we will demand the same respect that people should provide to all religions."

...
How much respect ARE religions actually due? Like "the right to swing your fist ends when it gets to be a threat", I'd suggest that tolerance stops when there is a disturbance to quiet enjoyment of life by others.

Franklin G's claims of persecution have been taken to pieces before.
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  #39  
Old 23rd December 2017, 01:53 PM
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Default Re: Religious Freedom review

This is the biggest problem with the Liberal party in my humble opinion. They simply have too many senior members who are under the influence of Churches and who let this influence prevent their judging important matters objectively.

Taking the piss out of sanctimonious and self-important people and organisations is a proud Australian tradition and if Sco Mo and his friends are not careful in implementing their "religious freedom" laws we will end up with the kind of censorship we so rightly condemn in other countries. The present climate of political correctness in debate is bad enough already.
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  #40  
Old 23rd December 2017, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: Religious Freedom review

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joele said View Post
my example of jewish law where the couple voluntarily agree to have the divorce hearing in the jewish court (beth din), as currently is possible in Australia, does fit that description?
I'm not familiar enough with the situation. Is it by consent? Does it conflict with secular law?
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