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  #11  
Old 21st January 2018, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Why Christopher Hitchens believed in The Historical Jesus

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That's the part that I don't get. If he was so obscure and had only a few followers, how did the religion get going in the first place? The people here that reject his historicity seem to struggle with the concept of a religion without a founder, but we have examples of religions and cults starting with fictitious leaders. I think that it is more parsimonious to believe that he was a classical fictional hero that was deified.
I don't think that is necessarily so. In biological evolution you can get some really strange mutations, which under the right conditions/environment, can sweep to fixation. The innovation of anti-freeze proteins and haemoglobin loss in Antarctic Ice Fish. A single amino acid substitution in hermaphroditic snails that leads to saltational speciation, and so on.

Mutations in religious memes can have the same huge effects. Indeed, it seems the more outlandish the claims and demands the cult has, the more popular it can get. The novelty of it all is part of it, and the feeling that unreasonable demands equate somehow to powerful gods. [Its really tough to be an Xian. Have you got what it takes]?

What about Trump sweeping to victory in the presidential elections? He offered something new. He was outrageous. And yet he won. Few predicted it. With the benefit of hindsight we can rationalise. The major parties were just doing business as usual.A lot of folks, justified or not, saw themselves as being sidelined. The rise of Xianity might just be a stochastic event, with now obvious cause, or a mix of causes that has been discussed.
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  #12  
Old 21st January 2018, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Why Christopher Hitchens believed in The Historical Jesus

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If he was so obscure and had only a few followers, how did the religion get going in the first place? The people here that reject his historicity seem to struggle with the concept of a religion without a founder, but we have examples of religions and cults starting with fictitious leaders. I think that it is more parsimonious to believe that he was a classical fictional hero that was deified.
Cults get started around actual people all the goddamned time. That's what's got me fucked: why anyone finds it difficult to believe that Christianity could have started the same way.
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  #13  
Old 21st January 2018, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Why Christopher Hitchens believed in The Historical Jesus

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Cults get started around actual people all the goddamned time. That's what's got me fucked: why anyone finds it difficult to believe that Christianity could have started the same way.
The problem in saying that is that there are cults that get started with no leaders and they don't seem to be necessary to gain traction and be followed. A classic example are the Cargo Cults and the fictional Ned Ludd. There are even UFO cults according to Richard Carrier. According to him in the ground breaking book, On The History of Jesus, historicizing mythical founders is actually anthropologically normal, and is driven by its polemical advantages (pp. 352-53).
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Old 21st January 2018, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Why Christopher Hitchens believed in The Historical Jesus

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The problem in saying that is that there are cults that get started with no leaders and they don't seem to be necessary to gain traction and be followed. A classic example are the Cargo Cults and the fictional Ned Ludd. There are even UFO cults according to Richard Carrier. According to him in the ground breaking book, On The History of Jesus, historicizing mythical founders is actually anthropologically normal, and is driven by its polemical advantages (pp. 352-53).
But it could happen either way, right?
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Old 21st January 2018, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Why Christopher Hitchens believed in The Historical Jesus

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Cults get started around actual people all the goddamned time. That's what's got me fucked: why anyone finds it difficult to believe that Christianity could have started the same way.
Also GM, consider that Christianity, Islam and Mormonism were technically started by the fictional characters Gabriel and Moroni.
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Old 21st January 2018, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: Why Christopher Hitchens believed in The Historical Jesus

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But it could happen either way, right?
Sure there could. I'm not ruling out that there could have been a historical Jesus, there were probably a few so called messiahs preaching that they were the son of God named Jesus. Jesus was a common name at that time and means "God is salvation," and the word Christ, or Messiah, means "the anointed". It seems to me that the name Jesus Christ is not a credible historic name and looks made up.
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Old 21st January 2018, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Why Christopher Hitchens believed in The Historical Jesus

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Cults get started around actual people all the goddamned time. That's what's got me fucked: why anyone finds it difficult to believe that Christianity could have started the same way.
The problem in saying that is that there are cults that get started with no leaders and they don't seem to be necessary to gain traction and be followed. A classic example are the Cargo Cults and the fictional Ned Ludd. There are even UFO cults according to Richard Carrier. According to him in the ground breaking book, On The History of Jesus, historicizing mythical founders is actually anthropologically normal, and is driven by its polemical advantages (pp. 352-53).
...which goes nowhere near making the "not a bloke" claim more likely than "probably a bloke". There are literally endless examples of cults being founded around actual people. Fuck, even in the last century there's the Branch Davidians, the Little Pebble mob, Jonestown, the Raelians, Sai Baba, that mob that recently destroyed a fucking town in India because their Godman got locked up for rape and fraud... the list is literally fucking endless.

So how is it "more parsimonious" for the founder of a cult to have been wholly invented at a later date, rather than a bloke who garnered a small following of fanatics that persisted after he died long enough for some other fucking fruitloop to take over and market it more successfully?
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Old 21st January 2018, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: Why Christopher Hitchens believed in The Historical Jesus

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But it could happen either way, right?
Sure there could. I'm not ruling out that there could have been a historical Jesus, there were probably a few so called messiahs preaching that they were the son of God named Jesus. Jesus was a common name at that time and means "God is salvation," and the word Christ, or Messiah, means "the anointed". It seems to me that the name Jesus Christ is not a credible historic name and looks made up.
It's a name+title thing, like "Sindbad the Sailor" or "Frederic the Great" - "Jesus the Anointed".

Differentiates from all the other Yeshuas.
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  #19  
Old 21st January 2018, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Why Christopher Hitchens believed in The Historical Jesus

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SEG said View Post
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Cults get started around actual people all the goddamned time. That's what's got me fucked: why anyone finds it difficult to believe that Christianity could have started the same way.
Also GM, consider that Christianity, Islam and Mormonism were technically started by the fictional characters Gabriel and Moroni.
Oh, we're doing that are we?

I have no time for that sort of disingenuous fuckery. You know full well that the religions in question are considered to be founded by Yeshua, Mohammed, and Smith, and at least the first two revere those founders as central messianic figures and godlike.

Fuck me gently with a chainsaw, we'll be opening a fucking theology school next.
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  #20  
Old 21st January 2018, 09:20 PM
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Default Re: Why Christopher Hitchens believed in The Historical Jesus

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It's a name+title thing, like "Sindbad the Sailor" or "Frederic the Great" - "Jesus the Anointed".

Differentiates from all the other Yeshuas.
True, but Jesus (Saviour) The Anointed sounds a wee bit contrived to me. If it sounds like bullshit...
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