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  #1  
Old 19th February 2018, 09:30 PM
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Default My position: promoting atheism is a moral responsibility

Any opposing positions/arguments?

ETA should probably state at least one of the reasons I think that lol:

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There are many cognitive derivatives which logically stem directly from atheism IMO and anybody who's had a proper think about the ramifications of atheism should easily reach those conclusions. Chief amongst those conclusions is that humans need take care of themselves/eachother/non-human animals/the environment etc. because there is no god looking out for us. This is no small revelation - on the contrary.

Last edited by Theorease; 19th February 2018 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 19th February 2018, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: My position: promoting atheism is a moral responsibility

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Any opposing positions/arguments?
Yes. Atheism alone doesn't achieve a great deal. There's plenty of atheists who still believe in dumbass shit, like homoepathy, crystal healing and various other sorts of woo. There are atheists who cling to ridiculous right-wing, racist dogma and other counter-progressive bullshit.

Better to spend the time promoting rational/critical thinking instead. Atheism can be a product of that and if a person is in possession of critical thinking skills, they're less likely to fall into the trap of assuming atheism confers some sort of intellectual superiority and therefore justifies whatever other evidence free bullshit they cling to.

Teaching critical thinking skills enables the horse to find it's way to water.

Your approach is just dragging it there and forcing its head under.
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  #3  
Old 19th February 2018, 10:06 PM
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Default Re: My position: promoting atheism is a moral responsibility

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Atheism alone doesn't achieve a great deal.
I beg to differ. There are a few examples of the things it (at least should) achieve in the OP. I will add to the list an absence of terror of hell and an absence of religiously motivated violence at this juncture.

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There's plenty of atheists who still believe in dumbass shit, like homoepathy, crystal healing and various other sorts of woo. There are atheists who cling to ridiculous right-wing, racist dogma and other counter-progressive bullshit.
That's a bit like saying there's no point in promoting atheism because some people will still eat a lot of chocolate.


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Better to spend the time promoting rational/critical thinking instead. Atheism can be a product of that and if a person is in possession of critical thinking skills, they're less likely to fall into the trap of assuming atheism confers some sort of intellectual superiority and therefore justifies whatever other evidence free bullshit they cling to.
Both should be taught by all means IMO, but just teaching critical thinking skills seems a mistake to me. I mean do we expect each child to do a Charles Darwin and come up with the theory of evolution independently or do we teach them the TOE?

Edit: more accurate vocab

Last edited by Theorease; 19th February 2018 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 19th February 2018, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: My position: promoting atheism is a moral responsibility

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I beg to differ. There are a few examples of the things it (at least should) achieve in the OP. I will add to the list a lack of terror of hell and a lack of religiously motivated violence at this juncture.
Yes, I saw your assumption and it doesn't stack up. Atheism is a lack of belief in deities, nothing more. It is a fairly big leap to go from that to the conclusions you assume an atheist will reach.

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That's a bit like saying there's no point in promoting atheism because some people will still eat a lot of chocolate.
Then you would be missing the point entirely.
Not believing in something doesn't magically invest a person with the reasoning to not believe in other stupid stuff or not engage in harmful behaviors.

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Both should be taught by all means IMO, but just teaching critical thinking skills seems a mistake to me. I mean do we expect each child to do a Charles Darwin and come up with the theory of evolution independently or do we teach them the TOE?
I don't recall saying anything about "teaching critical thinking skills and nothing else." The discussion was about promoting atheism and we appear to have leaped from that to the subject of evolution.

Just so we're clear.

Teaching evolution =/= promoting atheism.

A person can be an atheist and still not understand or accept the theory of evolution.

Don't assume that atheism confers any sort of intellectual superiority.
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  #5  
Old 19th February 2018, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: My position: promoting atheism is a moral responsibility

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Sendraks said View Post
Yes, I saw your assumption and it doesn't stack up.
It's not an assumption; it's a logical deduction and it does stack up, actually.

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Atheism is a lack of belief in deities, nothing more. It is a fairly big leap to go from that to the conclusions you assume an atheist will reach.
It's not a big leap at all; it's the deduction next door; and could well be taught/explained/promoted at the same time as teaching/explaining/promoting atheism just in case, as you seem to think Sendraks, that many people are so stupid they can't add 2 to 2.



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Then you would be missing the point entirely.
Not believing in something doesn't magically invest a person with the reasoning to not believe in other stupid stuff or not engage in harmful behaviors.
Eh? I never said it did.



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I don't recall saying anything about "teaching critical thinking skills and nothing else." The discussion was about promoting atheism and we appear to have leaped from that to the subject of evolution.

Just so we're clear.

Teaching evolution =/= promoting atheism.

A person can be an atheist and still not understand or accept the theory of evolution.

Don't assume that atheism confers any sort of intellectual superiority.
Er, I used TOE as an example; it's just coincidence that it plays a part in many people's atheism. I could just of easily used the example of teaching people how to swim; or cook; or....well etc ad infinitum obviously. Get the point? TBH the bulk of the quote above is just one large straw man however.
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Old 19th February 2018, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: My position: promoting atheism is a moral responsibility

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It's not an assumption; it's a logical deduction and it does stack up, actually.
You're going to have to do more than just assert that.

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Theorease said View Post
It's not a big leap at all; it's the deduction next door; and could well be taught/explained/promoted at the same time as teaching/explaining/promoting atheism just in case, as you seem to think Sendraks, that many people are so stupid they can't add 2 to 2.
Again, this is just you asserting it is the "deduction next door."
You're going to have to show your working out as to how you get from "atheism" to the necessary critical thinking skills required to reach the conclusions you're assuming will be reached.

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Er, I used TOE as an example; it's just coincidence that it plays a part in many people's atheism.
I'll restate, teaching TOE is not promoting atheism.
TOE does not cover "not believing in deities."
Again, you're making assumptions that one thing (TOE) necessarily follows the other (atheism).

I understood the principles of TOE long before I became an atheist.

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I could just of easily used the example of teaching people how to swim; or cook; or....well etc ad infinitum obviously. Get the point?
You could have done that, and that would have been an equally flawed example.

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TBH the bulk of the quote above is just one large straw man however.
Well, you created the strawman for me to knock down. If you find that boring, my advice would be not to create them.
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  #7  
Old 19th February 2018, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: My position: promoting atheism is a moral responsibility

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You're going to have to do more than just assert that. Again, this is just you asserting it is the "deduction next door."
You're going to have to show your working out as to how you get from "atheism" to the necessary critical thinking skills required to reach the conclusions you're assuming will be reached.
I'm asserting that 2 + 2 = 4; you're asserting that it doesn't because people don't know how to think at all without having specialised lessons on critical thinking. And anyway; the need to behave well because there's no god looking after us could be explained too, as I already said, and which you conveniently chose to ignore. Then there are the other two examples of beneficial consequences of atheism I have listed so far.



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I'll restate, teaching TOE is not promoting atheism.
TOE does not cover "not believing in deities."
Again, you're making assumptions that one thing (TOE) necessarily follows the other (atheism).

I understood the principles of TOE long before I became an atheist.
Oh FFS Sendraks - as I said in my last post - I used the TOE merely as an example of education - it is mere coincidence that it plays a part in many people's atheism. I mean did you actually read my last post?


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You could have done that, and that would have been an equally flawed example.
In what way would those be "equally flawed examples?"


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Well, you created the strawman for me to knock down. If you find that boring, my advice would be not to create them.
If you feel I've created a straw man could you please point out where.

Last edited by Theorease; 19th February 2018 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 19th February 2018, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: My position: promoting atheism is a moral responsibility

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I'm asserting that 2 + 2 = 4;
You're not.
Your assertion is that your claims re: atheism are equivalent to 2=2+4 but, you're not providing anything to back that up. Welcome to critical thinking skills 101. The burden of proof lies with you to back up your claims.

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Theorease said View Post
you're asserting that it doesn't because people don't know how to think at all without having specialised lessons on critical thinking.
Generally speaking, people don't know how to think without being taught the requisite skills.

Disbelief in deities is not an impressive intellectual feat. No more impressive than not believing in Santa or Faeries or so forth.

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Theorease said View Post
And anyway; the need to behave well because there's no god looking after us could be explained too, as I already said, and which you conveniently chose to ignore.
What do you mean by "need to behave well?"

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Then there are the other two examples of beneficial consequences of atheism I have listed so far.
You've listed things and asserted they are consequences of atheism but, you've not actually demonstrated that to be the case.

Correlation =/= causation.


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Theorease said View Post
Oh FFS Sendraks - as I said in my last post - I used the TOE merely as an example of education - it is mere coincidence that it plays a part in many people's atheism. I mean did you actually read my last post?
Yes that's right "it is mere co-incidence."
TOE does not follow atheism or vice versa.

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Theorease said View Post
In what way would those be "equally flawed examples?"
As I've repeatedly stated now. One thing does not follow the other.

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If you feel I've created a straw man could you please point out where.
You were the one who stated that a strawman had been created, not me, yet you failed to point out how or where it was.

The strawman you created was..

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Theorease said View Post
Both should be taught by all means IMO, but just teaching critical thinking skills seems a mistake to me
and I pointed out that I had not said anything about "just teaching critical thinking skills."
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  #9  
Old 20th February 2018, 02:39 AM
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Default Re: My position: promoting atheism is a moral responsibility

pffffffffffff you're either a shill or so arrogant/insecure you can't bear to admit defeat in an argument/revise your position. Either way I can't be bothered to refute any more of your vacuous deflective avoidant bullshit - I've got more important things to do. If anybody's got any serious objections to my position please post them otherwise I will consider the matter closed on this forum. Peaceout.
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Old 20th February 2018, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: My position: promoting atheism is a moral responsibility

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Either way I can't be bothered to refute any more of your vacuous deflective avoidant bullshit - I've got more important things to do.
Have you refuted what I've said? You do not appear to have done anything from repeat the same assertion over and over, whilst failing to provide any support for it. And given I've responded to your comments directly, it is apparent how I'm being "avoidant" and deflective, although your latest post certainly qualifies for that criticism.

On the plus side, your lasted post has neatly demonstrated my point about people not knowing how to think without being taught the requisite skills.
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Last edited by Sendraks; 20th February 2018 at 02:53 AM.
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