homophobia, intollerance and inappropriate (?) humor

[Cody]

Not one person on this thread apart from Jonathon has understood that comparing same-sex-orientation to the vices in the joke is offensive and thus homophobic.

The only association the joke makes between homosexuality and the various vices listed is that they are sins according to many Christians. Perhaps you are reading too much into it Elbert.

[Jonathon Byrd]

Cody. If the end of the week in hell were rampant heterosexual carousing, which is also a sin by religious standards; the joke would lose its appeal. The humour derived is because of commonplace homophobic attitudes in the community. These may be mild and not intentionally meant in a bigoted way, but that view is from the standpoint of those not personally affected.

Elbert has put forward a considered case. That it has been flippantly and some times aggressively dismissed by some posters should have the warning bells of bigotry ringing.

Jonathon

[Duffy]

Whoa Elbert , so much said I don't know where to begin. One thing that stands out to me is the defensiveness in which you read our comments. Example: that I said all gays flaunt around in pink g-strings. I said that the homosexual community itself promotes the gay stereotype by wearing pink g-strings at it's gay pride parade. Hey don't shoot the messenger.

With my interest in the woman's movement I can tell you that playing the victim results in very little change. Because society should treat woman better doesn't mean it does. The gay community (for which I am in awe) have followed the feminist lead and taken their arguement for equal rights to the public arena. Feeling bad for the injustice should be the motivation to seek change, not the ball and chain that keeps you living in pity. If you feel passionate about change you have to ignore the detractors and focus on the prize. Like I said to Jonothan, saying 'hands off' only encourages others to want to touch. Placing yourself above ridicule only gains you attention. It is a hard slog to change opinions it doesn't help by being too sensitive (a teaspoon of concrete as my son says).

There is change in the way homosexuals are viewed. Most people I know have no problem with same sex marriages. Does it stop them from telling the occassionally tasteless joke, no. Offensive misogynist jokes are still the norm. Maybe you just don't notice them. Do I care? No I'm indifferent to them because they are ignorant. If they are clever because of their use of language, then I may laugh in appreciation of wit. Like Etheists joke.

Elbert, if you want to march for gay rights I'm right there with you. If you want to stand in the corner and jab at anyone that might benignly cause offense then you are on your own.

[Jonathon Byrd]

Duffy,

I ask this in all honesty. If it had been in the past illegal to be blue eyed, (and remember there are still countries that have the death penalty in place for blue eyed people) but the law had slowly changed here to where it was no longer illegal but blue eyed children, adolescents and adults were still disadvantaged (Let’s say to the same extent as are same sex oriented people) as Elbert points out and we all know is true anyhow, would jokes and snide remarks about blue eyed people still be acceptable?

Would it matter how some blue eyed people brought their plight to the attention of the public as long as they were not violent?

Would you be happy that your blue eyed children (If they were) were discriminated against, forever under threat of beatings, death and being ostracised? Would you still go along with the humorous quips if “they are clever because of their use of language”.

Jonathon

[Fiery]

There are jokes that offend me.

Blonde jokes- Stereotyping all women with 1 hair color as being stupid is.... stupid. (I'm not blonde, but my daughter is, and I hate the idea of her having to live up to or down to ... her HAIR COLOR!!!)

Men bashing jokes- wtf? Not all men are stupid. Not all men are incapable of doing 2 things at once. Not all men think only with their dicks. Not all men are incapable of doing anything but drink beer and watch telly.

Women bashing jokes- wtf? Not all of us wear makeup, worry obsessively about our hair, are bad drivers, or spend a fortune on shows.

So what do I do when a joke offends me. I don't laugh. I ignore it. Sometimes I will tell the person that I didn't think it was funny. If it was genuinely bad I might say, "Not all blondes are stupid." Or "Not all men act that way." But usually I just ignore it.

The best thing to do is ASK the person if they are genuinely prejudiced against whatever is bothering you about their not-funny joke.

For instance- Ethiest- Are you a homophobe?

I thought the joke was funny because the stereotype is that people in hell will be anally raped by satan and his minions for eternity. THAT'S what I thought the joke was addressing. It said nothing about all the gay people getting to boink the other denizens of hell. In fact, why would satan allow it? Gay men typically like buttsex giving or receiving, though granted with willing partners, don't they? Unless they have other issues. So how "not liking fridays" became gay bashing is really quite beyond me. Asking "are you gay" was the stereotypical "only gay people LIKE anal sex". Frankly THAT offends me. It's not just homosexual men that like anal sex.

So Etheist- is that what you meant? That heterosexual's dont like anal sex????

But why over think this. IT'S A JOKE. Laugh don't laugh. Ask for clarification and see what happens. Asking for clarification is ALWAYS better than assuming prejudice or lack of intelligence.

[Fiery]

Jonathan- re: blue eyed children.

Someone made the point earlier in this thread. It wasn't the gender bashing JOKES that led to women's disempowerment. It was the church, societal norms, and government laws and lack of protection that kept women in the home, barefoot and pregnant. NOT the jokes.

Being able to laugh at something, even jews in an ash tray, doesn't make one anti-semitic or even homophobic. One can LAUGH even at awful things.

Gallows humor.

ASK if the person was prejudice, THEN zing them. Don't assume they are because of a silly joke.

Unwad thy knickers and take a chill pill, dude. If the issue is really important, start a new thread and say what you think in a positive way instead of assuming the worst of complete strangers. For example- the issue of homophobia and violence against gay youths deserves its own thread along with links to articles to raise awareness of a very real issue. But don't blame Etheist or Duffy or anyone else who laughed at Etheist's joke for the problem. Put positively, that issue could get real support here and maybe even make a difference in some young people's lives. Instead of just uselessly pissing off the natives.

[davo]

It's also got to do with context. The context that a joke is told in is an important factor.
What is sad is that a lot of people perpetuate the concepts of hate by accusing everything of it, outside of the context. The majority if not all people on the board couldn't care less what 2 adults do in the privacy of their own room. The context of the joke had me laughing at the insecurities of the religious, that have defined those things as 'bad'.
I might pass this onto a mate in the Uk that works with male prostitutes, we host a website for his org, for his opinion over what folk that have had pretty hard lives, and still are for the most part, think about it ....

[Duffy]

Originally Posted by Jonathon Byrd

Duffy,

I ask this in all honesty. If it had been in the past illegal to be blue eyed, (and remember there are still countries that have the death penalty in place for blue eyed people) but the law had slowly changed here to where it was no longer illegal but blue eyed children, adolescents and adults were still disadvantaged (Let’s say to the same extent as are same sex oriented people) as Elbert points out and we all know is true anyhow, would jokes and snide remarks about blue eyed people still be acceptable?

Would it matter how some blue eyed people brought their plight to the attention of the public as long as they were not violent?

Would you be happy that your blue eyed children (If they were) were discriminated against, forever under threat of beatings, death and being ostracised? Would you still go along with the humorous quips if “they are clever because of their use of language”.

Jonathon

Ok...I'm sorry to those bored with my feminist comparisons but here I go again...Jonothan, women are raped, beaten, murdered all the time for being nothing other than women. Don't assume I don't understand the plight of those that suffer under predjudice. But if we are to worry about every numbskulls tasteless assertions we wouldn't have time to do anything else for the cause. Being the humour police is no way to fight this battle. Like Fiery suggests, come back with your own retorts. Nothing funnier than a well delivered comeback. I understand the war, really I do, I just question if this is the right battle to have, if the aggressors are elsewhere.

[Jonathon Byrd]

Fiery,

“Blonde jokes- Stereotyping all women with 1 hair color as being stupid is.... stupid. (I'm not blonde, but my daughter is, and I hate the idea of her having to live up to or down to ... her HAIR COLOR!!!)”

I would imagine then you do not tell blonde jokes. But that may not be the case of other people when their child has brown hair. BTW, the ramifications of blonde jokes are nowhere near those of the homophobic kind.

The adverse jokes about women as second class citizens did not help with emancipation for women. I did not say they were the only problem.

No, I agree, the ash tray joke or same sex jokes do not make the tellers anti-Semitic or homophobic. But, and this is the harshest word I have used in the whole shebang, it does in my opinion, make them thoughtless.

I am not blaming Duffy or Etheist, I am merely giving my opinion and defending it. That is what Forums such as this are all about. There will always be someone who is bound to be ‘pissed off’ with topics that touch a nerve. That is the name of the game. This is how a consensus is reached and change or no change takes place.

Jonathon

[Jonathon Byrd]

Duffy,

That is why I wouldn’t make jokes concerning a causation of any of the following “…women are raped, beaten, murdered all the time for being nothing other than women.”

Now back to the question you have avoided. Tell me about your blue eyed children.

Jonathon