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  #21  
Old 23rd July 2017, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Dawkins de-platformed at UC Berkeley

Thanks, IT.

I think you may be extrapolating a little in some of the cases you portray, and I can definitely tell you that Queensland Police do provide descriptions including ethnic profile information:
Quote:
He is described Aboriginal in appearance, 189cm tall, of slim build, with short black hair and brown eyes.
Quote:
She is described as being Caucasian in appearance, around 160cms tall and has grey hair and blue eyes.
As an atheist, I'm not upset by the removal of xtian religious images.

I'm sorry for your tradition, but the idea of a black bogeymen doesn't make me very happy either. Do you think the characterisation has potential to do harm?
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  #22  
Old 23rd July 2017, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Dawkins de-platformed at UC Berkeley

The other thing is, that even if for the sake of those cases are exactly as presented and inarguably going too far, the political correctness at issue is at worst an issue of people being told to shut up unfairly.

When the coin is reversed, it is people who aren't caucasian in appearance being imprisoned at vastly greater rates or even being killed by police, suffering shorter life expectancies and far worse financial and health outcomes, it's women being paid less, assaulted, it's lgbtq people being bullied at school to the point of suicide...

But the big problem, of course, is political correctness.
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  #23  
Old 24th July 2017, 01:07 AM
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Default Re: Dawkins de-platformed at UC Berkeley

This is unfortunate for Richard Dawkins and those who were turning out to hear him, people willing to pay and come on the night.

R.D. is scrupulous about what he says and that it be unambiguous. He has contended against this very thing all his career, also against the god delusion, religion's antipathy to science and its methodology and has confronted the malpractice done in religion, just as is done on the surpassing AFA forums.

I have Dawkins's latest book Science in the Soul: Selected Writings of a Passionate Rationalist, hanging out to get into it. This will be about number 13. I am indebted.

Cultural relativism is the attitude that we must not criticise any culture, just as an anthropologist doing fieldwork studying say, a traditional society remains strictly impartial and observes non-interference.

Islam is somehow sacrosanct. After all we don't want to cause upset and incur a great big fatwa.

What of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights or of education itself?
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  #24  
Old 24th July 2017, 07:17 AM
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Default Re: Dawkins de-platformed at UC Berkeley

Quote:
Icho Tolot said View Post
Here is one example of political correctness. In the Netherlands, the 'Zwarte Piet' (Black Peter) character is part of the annual feast of St Nicholas which is celebrated on 5 December each year. He is supposed to be the helper of the 'Saint' and amuses children. This character was introduced in 1850 and often (there are actually multiple Black Peters) he paints his face black. There is a historical significance behind this but I won't go into that. St Nicholas feast has been celebrated for much longer before 1850. Just lately, the Dutch have copped increasing criticism for portraying a black person and stand accused of being racists, especially by those in other countries. Do you know, it had never before been realised in The Netherlands that this could one day (in a more modern setting) be construed as a containing racist elements. Black Peter, by the way, is supposed to be a black Moor from Spain in the dim past. As a child, we celebrated St Nicholas and we received presents on that day. It is only during the last few years that I have found out that these days there is a growing opposition to St Nicholas having a black helper (helpers).

Other examples are:
Happy Christmas should become Happy Holidays lest non-Christians are offended.
Nativity scenes no longer appear in some child care centres. Afterall, they could offend non-Christians.
In 2010, some UK bosses axed tiny pigs from children's toy farm sets just in case Muslims and Jew might take offence
Perhaps blackboards should be called chalkboards (yes, this came up as well).
You should not say that Police are looking for an Aboriginal man as the very mention of this could be seen as a whole race being targeted.
Last year's Red Cross Pool Safety Poster came under fire as there were apparently proportionally more coloured kids being portrayed as naughty.
I can see a time come when place names like Blackwood and Blackburn must be changed just in case someone could draw a racist inference from the name.
So TIMB, these are just a small handful of examples.
A whole bunch of citations are needed for this.
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  #25  
Old 24th July 2017, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: Dawkins de-platformed at UC Berkeley

I thought black Pete was relatively modern, and was popularised at a time when slavery and colonialism were rife, and that part of the "tradition" includes putting on a mocking west Indian accent. This is before you consider the implications of blackface. So there's a pretty strong argument that it is actually racist.

The happy holidays example seems to be the wrong way around. I'm tired of the modern right wing political correctness that says you can't say happy holidays. "Merry Christmas" has become poitically correct in the Fox news tribe. You should just give whatever greeting you like, or that seems appropriate in the circumstances. For example I would probably avoid "Merry Christmas" where Jews are around, although I know Jews who don't mind in the slightest. I've been wished "Merry Christmas" by Muslims, maybe they don't care either. I wish them a happy Eid, be it Fitr or Adha, it's all good. But the "war on Christmas" is a media beat-up.

The thing about "police looking for an aboriginal man" is that in crime reporting, you should not mention the ethnicity of a person unless it's relevant. So if the person is dangerous, or police are seeking public help to find them, they issue a description, and it is conventional for racial characteristics to be included. That's fine, and it happens all the time. If you left out the description of a missing child or a dangerous criminal because you were worried about racism, that would be political correctness. But in my experience, people know the difference.

If the suspect is not at large, there's been a tendency in the past to ONLY mention ethnicity if the person is from an ethnic minority, and leave it out if the person is white. That's bigotry and it's unacceptable.

When people complain about "political correctness", they are usually unhappy that their bigotry is being called out.

Quote:
Icho Tolot said View Post
Here is one example of political correctness. In the Netherlands, the 'Zwarte Piet' (Black Peter) character is part of the annual feast of St Nicholas which is celebrated on 5 December each year. He is supposed to be the helper of the 'Saint' and amuses children. This character was introduced in 1850 and often (there are actually multiple Black Peters) he paints his face black. There is a historical significance behind this but I won't go into that. St Nicholas feast has been celebrated for much longer before 1850. Just lately, the Dutch have copped increasing criticism for portraying a black person and stand accused of being racists, especially by those in other countries. Do you know, it had never before been realised in The Netherlands that this could one day (in a more modern setting) be construed as a containing racist elements. Black Peter, by the way, is supposed to be a black Moor from Spain in the dim past. As a child, we celebrated St Nicholas and we received presents on that day. It is only during the last few years that I have found out that these days there is a growing opposition to St Nicholas having a black helper (helpers).

Other examples are:
Happy Christmas should become Happy Holidays lest non-Christians are offended.
Nativity scenes no longer appear in some child care centres. Afterall, they could offend non-Christians.
In 2010, some UK bosses axed tiny pigs from children's toy farm sets just in case Muslims and Jew might take offence
Perhaps blackboards should be called chalkboards (yes, this came up as well).
You should not say that Police are looking for an Aboriginal man as the very mention of this could be seen as a whole race being targeted.
Last year's Red Cross Pool Safety Poster came under fire as there were apparently proportionally more coloured kids being portrayed as naughty.
I can see a time come when place names like Blackwood and Blackburn must be changed just in case someone could draw a racist inference from the name.
So TIMB, these are just a small handful of examples.
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  #26  
Old 24th July 2017, 07:39 AM
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Default Re: Dawkins de-platformed at UC Berkeley

Citations re the Icho Tolot matter:

1. QLD Police do use ethnicity when seeking missing persons or other persons of interest. All ethnicity groups are mentioned equally.

2. Zwarte Piet/Black Peter dates from 1850: Wiki
Quote:
The character first appeared in an 1850 book by Amsterdam schoolteacher Jan Schenkman, and is commonly depicted as a blackamoor. Traditionally, Zwarte Piet is said to be black because he is a Moor from Spain.[1] Those portraying Zwarte Piet typically put on blackface make-up and colourful Renaissance attire, in addition to curly wigs, red lipstick, and earrings. In recent years, the character has become the subject of controversy, especially in the Netherlands.
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  #27  
Old 24th July 2017, 12:45 PM
Icho Tolot Icho Tolot is offline
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Default Re: Dawkins de-platformed at UC Berkeley

According to the Dutch tradition, St Nicholas hails from Spain although I believe that he may come from Turkey. It is not clear why the Dutch treat the St Nicholas as coming from Spain. However, some centuries ago, the Mores were in Spain and hence, St Nicholas is deemed to have appointed a Moor as his helper. Typically, the Black Peters entertain the children and throw sweets toward them. I am not in a position to defend against the assertion that it could be treated as racist. All I know is that during my youth, I have never heard any complaint about that and it did not even occur to me that it could be racist. Neither have I heard that a Black Peter could be considered as a Bo(o)geyman.
Personally I have no problem saying Happy Holidays instead of Happy Christmas. I am only making a point that you should say Happy Holidays for good reasons and not because some other religions might be offended by the word Christmas.
Also, I am well aware that the media/police description often includes a 'male Causian' or 'young male Aboriginal'. Again, personally I have absolutely no problem with this if crime is involved.
Finally, yes I have extrapolated most of my original examples but simply wanted to make a point that increasingly people seem to object to ever more things ranging from words, expressions, certain toys etc. I am not here to analyse Political Correctness beyond what I have said here.
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  #28  
Old 24th July 2017, 03:21 PM
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Default Re: Dawkins de-platformed at UC Berkeley

Quote:
Icho Tolot said View Post
Here is one example of political correctness. In the Netherlands, the 'Zwarte Piet' (Black Peter) character is part of the annual feast of St Nicholas which is celebrated on 5 December each year. He is supposed to be the helper of the 'Saint' and amuses children. This character was introduced in 1850 and often (there are actually multiple Black Peters) he paints his face black.
Black Peter is clearly a caricature. How many black people do you know that have jet black skin and red lips? If a dark skinned person in history is admired, they should be represented as a real person, not some bizarre psuedo-human. Saint Nicholas is clearly a very human looking person, and any bearded grandad could pop on the clothing and play the part. Black Peter doesn't look realistic.
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  #29  
Old 24th July 2017, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: Dawkins de-platformed at UC Berkeley

Quote:
virphen said View Post
The other thing is, that even if for the sake of those cases are exactly as presented and inarguably going too far, the political correctness at issue is at worst an issue of people being told to shut up unfairly.

When the coin is reversed, it is people who aren't caucasian in appearance being imprisoned at vastly greater rates or even being killed by police, suffering shorter life expectancies and far worse financial and health outcomes, it's women being paid less, assaulted, it's lgbtq people being bullied at school to the point of suicide...
To be fair these issues are intertwined, and also people of minorities are getting the same treatment. Maryam Namazie is my favorite example as she is a non-white woman from an Islamic background who speaks out about many issues in Islam, particularly women's issues and is silenced on university campuses in the U.S. (de-platformed), by people claiming to be from the left and in the name of feminism sadly, in the guise of Political Correctness.

A post by the feminist society at Goldsmiths Uni after she was shutdown there in solidarity against her - http://goldfemsoc.tumblr.com/post/13...-in-solidarity

Now, Political Correctness is probably the wrong term as normally I like to swap PC with 'not being an a*hole' to show it isn't a bad thing. However she isn't being an a*hole IMHO, she is talking about her experiences but falls foul of people 'protecting a minority' from what they see from their inexperienced/uneducated position as criticism. <- The irony is they are attacking a minority within that 'minority' to protect the greater minority from the smaller one.
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Last edited by joele; 24th July 2017 at 05:02 PM.
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  #30  
Old 24th July 2017, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: Dawkins de-platformed at UC Berkeley

I wish that I had never talked about that Dutch custom. The main question probably must be: Was it ever meant to be belittle another race, yes or no? Nobody really knows as the alleged historical details vary almost as much as people's opinions. In the first place, Sinterklaas (Saint Nicholas) is celebrated on 5 December each year, it has a centuries old tradition, and it is a type of festival for children, not adults. It is the children that receive presents on 5 December. Children, as a rule, do not think of Black Peter as adults would or could. I have no idea really what the correct interpretation of this 'black' character is. It is my understanding that the Dutch on the whole do not look upon Black Peter in terms of his skin colour. He simply is regarded as a dressed up and coloured person (perhaps like a type of clown) who entertains the children. I guess that this tradition is now increasingly in danger of having to be modified as probably other traditions in the world are called upon to implement as well. There are parades in the USA where a good handful of people dress up as Indians (my understanding). Perhaps they should stop doing this as well. Where does all this end?
Stub King, my apologies for having introduced this discussion within your thread, I never dreamed that there would be such a large input. I believe that we should put a stop to this discussion out of courtesy toward you.
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Last edited by Icho Tolot; 24th July 2017 at 05:07 PM.
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