Go Back   AFA Forums > Welcome > Getting started

Getting started New to atheism or still in the process of removing those final theistic indoctrinations?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 19th July 2017, 09:20 AM
billyboy11 billyboy11 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 34
Default billyboy

Hi Everyone
I know that for something to be real, it has to satisfy one of our five critical sensors, sight, sound, touch, smell, and taste. But the human scope of senses is narrow compared to that of an animal. For a simple example, take a dog whistle, we as humans can't hear it, but does that mean it doesn't exist? no, because dogs can hear them. I once watched a cat, sitting on a lounge chair, follow something from one side of the room to the other. I couldn't see anything, but what was the cat seeing, must have been something. Is this not reason enough to at least consider that maybe there may be another existence that is just out of our scope of senses? Call it supernatural, call it whatever. I would like to hear other comments on this subject. Cheers Bill
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 19th July 2017, 10:05 AM
Darwinsbulldog's Avatar
Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Perth
Posts: 18,621
Default Re: billyboy

Quote:
billyboy11 said View Post
Hi Everyone
I know that for something to be real, it has to satisfy one of our five critical sensors, sight, sound, touch, smell, and taste. But the human scope of senses is narrow compared to that of an animal. For a simple example, take a dog whistle, we as humans can't hear it, but does that mean it doesn't exist? no, because dogs can hear them. I once watched a cat, sitting on a lounge chair, follow something from one side of the room to the other. I couldn't see anything, but what was the cat seeing, must have been something. Is this not reason enough to at least consider that maybe there may be another existence that is just out of our scope of senses? Call it supernatural, call it whatever. I would like to hear other comments on this subject. Cheers Bill
Welcome Bill. You might want to dial over to the intros section and say hello.

Humans have got themselves in hot water about reality for thousands of years. [For example, the assumption that gods, magic, etc was real].

Even among humans, our perceptions are not equal. For example, many women have enhanced colour vision due to a fourth type of photo-receptor.-in their eyes.

So yes, we know from comparative physiology that animals can have much better senses than ours. Of course, with science and technology we can increase what we can perceive enormously.

And it seems reality [through the lens of natural phenomena] is like an onion. Telescopes make the far seem near and microscopes enlarge our view of the tiny.

By definition, if something can be sensed, then it is natural phenomena. However, senses [and the brains that process sense data] are not perfect. But even if they were flawless, we could still misinterpret what we see.

For example, an adult seeing fairies. To a scientifically literate person, that might tell them to go see a doctor, because "seeing fairies" can be a symptom of brain trauma or brain cancer.

And if a Catholic person sees a bleeding statue of Christ or Mary? That would seem to be supernatural. But the first question we might ask is that do NON-Catholics [including atheists] also see [and interpret what they see] in the same way?

If everybody, no matter what there religion or world view came to the same conclusion about the same vision, then what you would have is intersubjective truth.

To be doubly sure, you might like to make the proposition falsifiable. To look for a number of alternative explanations for the same phenomenon. Then, before you know it, you are actually doing science.
__________________
Just stick to the idea that science tests falsifiable hypotheses to destruction.
Reply With Quote
Like WesternGeo liked this post
  #3  
Old 19th July 2017, 10:05 AM
Darwinsbulldog's Avatar
Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Perth
Posts: 18,621
Default Re: billyboy

Quote:
billyboy11 said View Post
Hi Everyone
I know that for something to be real, it has to satisfy one of our five critical sensors, sight, sound, touch, smell, and taste. But the human scope of senses is narrow compared to that of an animal. For a simple example, take a dog whistle, we as humans can't hear it, but does that mean it doesn't exist? no, because dogs can hear them. I once watched a cat, sitting on a lounge chair, follow something from one side of the room to the other. I couldn't see anything, but what was the cat seeing, must have been something. Is this not reason enough to at least consider that maybe there may be another existence that is just out of our scope of senses? Call it supernatural, call it whatever. I would like to hear other comments on this subject. Cheers Bill
Welcome Bill. You might want to dial over to the intros section and say hello.

Humans have got themselves in hot water about reality for thousands of years. [For example, the assumption that gods, magic, etc was real].

Even among humans, our perceptions are not equal. For example, many women have enhanced colour vision due to a fourth type of photo-receptor.-in their eyes.

So yes, we know from comparative physiology that animals can have much better senses than ours. Of course, with science and technology we can increase what we can perceive enormously.

And it seems reality [through the lens of natural phenomena] is like an onion. Telescopes make the far seem near and microscopes enlarge our view of the tiny.

By definition, if something can be sensed, then it is natural phenomena. However, senses [and the brains that process sense data] are not perfect. But even if they were flawless, we could still misinterpret what we see.

For example, an adult seeing fairies. To a scientifically literate person, that might tell them to go see a doctor, because "seeing fairies" can be a symptom of brain trauma or brain cancer.

And if a Catholic person sees a "bleeding statue" of Christ or Mary? That would seem to be supernatural. But the first question we might ask is that do NON-Catholics [including atheists] also see [and interpret what they see] in the same way?

If everybody, no matter what there religion or world view came to the same conclusion about the same vision, then what you would have is intersubjective truth.

To be doubly sure, you might like to make the proposition falsifiable. To look for a number of alternative explanations for the same phenomenon. Then, before you know it, you are actually doing science.
__________________
Just stick to the idea that science tests falsifiable hypotheses to destruction.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 19th July 2017, 10:42 AM
bruce1937's Avatar
bruce1937 bruce1937 is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Kilmore
Posts: 2,698
Default Re: billyboy

Well knock me down with a zephyr, upon reading your OP I thought well this guy is a theist for sure.
We have developed a whole range of sophisticated tools to help observe things that we are unable to detect with our limited senses.
Welcome to the forum.
__________________
The meaning of your life, is what you choose to make it.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 19th July 2017, 10:52 AM
The Irreverent Mr Black's Avatar
The Irreverent Mr Black The Irreverent Mr Black is offline
I Walk With Dog
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Toontown
Posts: 5,146
Default Re: billyboy

G'day, Billyboy.

Like some of my wise colleagues have said above, it's still natural, even if we need "super" means to detect it.

I don't think you'll find there's really anything that isn't part of this natural, physical world.

I hope you enjoy discussing stuff here.
__________________

Tell people there's an invisible man in the sky, the majority believe you.
Tell people the paint is wet, they have to touch it to be sure. - George Carlin

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 19th July 2017, 10:57 AM
pipbarber's Avatar
pipbarber pipbarber is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,048
Default Re: billyboy

Hi Billy, welcome to the forum.

A cat intently following the movement of something you can't see is interesting stuff. I have no explanation for it, i'm not an expert in cat consciousness or cat neurology. However, raising the possibility that something supernatural is taking place is jumping the gun a tad, dont you think? What are some other possible explanations? There's a bit of 'god of the gap' at play here i think.
Reply With Quote
Like The Irreverent Mr Black liked this post
  #7  
Old 19th July 2017, 11:07 AM
Lord Blackadder's Avatar
Lord Blackadder Lord Blackadder is offline
Minister for Religious Genocide
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne: a small village on Mars just outside the capital city, Wibble
Posts: 5,969
Default Re: billyboy

Pretty sure my cats see stuff that I can't because they have better sensory perception than I do, especially anything to do with the order Rodentia. Doesn't mean I should consider the possibility of the supernatural as there is a logical explanation (Occam's Razor and all that).
Besides, you are selling human senses short: cats have excellent eyesight, but not at close range. They also only have 470 taste buds as opposed to our over 9000, which probably explains why we don't lick our own butts.


Sent from my iPhone using magic technology thingy application thingy.
__________________
If atheism were true, why do cats have pretty stripes on them?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 19th July 2017, 11:49 AM
Stubby's Avatar
Stubby Stubby is offline
Omu'sata
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 2,269
Default Re: billyboy

Gudday billyboy.

I see better in the dark than I do in daylight. Is it because I have maxed out my dwarven infravision or is it because I am seriously colourblind (nod to your post, DB) and see grey scale better than most? It may be either, but I think it's highly unlikely that it is a racial trait from mythology. It may not even be because of my colourblindness (that's only my personal rationalisation of it - I've never sought an opinion from an ophthalmologist).

IMO, "supernatural" is either a highly entertaining TV show or just something that we as a species haven't figured out yet.
__________________
"Send me money, send me green, heaven you will meet. Make your contribution and you'll get a better seat" - Metallica, Leper Messiah
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 19th July 2017, 04:32 PM
Lord Blackadder's Avatar
Lord Blackadder Lord Blackadder is offline
Minister for Religious Genocide
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne: a small village on Mars just outside the capital city, Wibble
Posts: 5,969
Default Re: billyboy

Nah Stubby, I reckon you're a cat.


Sent from my iPhone using magic technology thingy application thingy.
__________________
If atheism were true, why do cats have pretty stripes on them?
Reply With Quote
Like Stubby liked this post
  #10  
Old 19th July 2017, 05:08 PM
WesternGeo's Avatar
WesternGeo WesternGeo is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Perth, WA
Posts: 573
Default Re: billyboy

Gday billyboy, and welcome.

While it is true we our senses are limited and fallible our ability to use technology to expand our ability to observe more of the universe is increasing rapidly, as others have pointed out. You are correct that there are definitely things we have not observed and cannot detect yet, but why call these 'supernatural' with all the baggage that entails. It is ok to accept that we are ignorant of many things, but to use this as an excuse to believe in anything you can imagine is illogical.

The time to start believing something is when there is evidence to confirm its existence, and when that happens it is no longer 'supernatural' rather it becomes part of our understanding of the universe.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 02:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.