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#1
8th June 2017, 04:48 PM
 workmx Feminazi and semi-professional inconoclast Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Canberra Posts: 6,153
Legal question: The Constitution and ADF chaplains

Are ADF chaplains covered by part 118 of the Australian Constitution?

They currently have no Humanist chaplains.

Sent from my A1601 using Tapatalk
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#2
9th June 2017, 07:51 PM
 SEG AFA Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Hills District of Sydney Posts: 517
Re: Legal question: The Constitution and ADF chaplains

Quote:
 workmx said Are ADF chaplains covered by part 118 of the Australian Constitution? They currently have no Humanist chaplains. Sent from my A1601 using Tapatalk
How do you know that there are no Humanist chaplains? I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case, as even professional secular counselors and psychologists are prohibited from positions in the school chaplaincy programme.
#3
10th June 2017, 11:37 AM
 Blue Lightning "Mr Charles Darwin had the gall to ask" Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sydney Posts: 6,104
Re: Legal question: The Constitution and ADF chaplains

Interesting question. One would need to know the basis on which "chaplains" are employed / retained / active in the ADF. Are they ADF officers who happen to be chaplains, ADF officers designated by the ADF as chaplains, or -similarly the to schools situation- outsiders offered by religions to the ADF?
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"Just stick to the idea that science is just about making descriptive models of natural phenomena, whose emergent predictions are tested to destruction" - Woof!
"Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

Last edited by Blue Lightning; 10th June 2017 at 11:42 AM.
#4
10th June 2017, 11:58 AM
 The Irreverent Mr Black Today is today. Tomorrow is uncertain. Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Toontown Posts: 5,256
Re: Legal question: The Constitution and ADF chaplains

We want you for a new recruit.

Quote:
 The Army has diverse spiritual needs. Army personnel are encouraged to practice their own Faith, but it's not always possible to provide ministry to each person's faith at all times. Therefore in this role you'll provide ministry and spiritual support to all members, regardless of their Faith, while still being responsible to your own church.
PS: $94,200 a year. See also the Anglican thingy Quote:  The Defence Anglican team are on the look out for faithful and inovative Anglican clergy with pastoral hearts. Currently, there are a limited number of full time positions, and in selected areas, part time reservists’ positions available. These positions provide, for the right person, an exciting opportunity in ministry. Anglican Defence Force Chaplains are Anglican clergy who seek to minister in the love of Christ to the members of the Australian Defence Force (and their families). Anglican Defence Chaplaincy is a ministry of care, motivated by the love that Jesus Christ has for the world and expressed in the Defence context. 2 Timothy 4 provides a good model: – Proclaim the message. – Be persistent – whether the time is favourable or not. – Convince, rebuke, encourage. – Be of sound doctrine. – Do the work of an evangelist. In day to day task terms, an Anglican Chaplain can expect to: – Provide pastoral care to defence men and women and their families. – Provide pastoral and ethical advice as appropriate. – Provide a spiritual and religious ministry in whatever circumstances you find yourself in and in accordance with our Anglican practise. See our Mission and Vision Statement. Eligibility Those seeking to be an Anglican Defence Chaplain must: – Be ordained a Priest/Presbyter and must have been in orders two years from Deaconing. – Hold a Bachelor of Theology degree (or deemed equivalent) – Must agree to both Faithfulness in Service and the Anglican Chaplains Code of Practice. – Must be physically fit and mentally robust. – Must be able to work in partnership with Chaplains of other denominations. – Be prepared to exercise a Christian ministry in a secular environment. __________________ Truth will be spoken to Power. Power will respond by narrowing its eyes, and making a mouth like a cat's anus. #5 10th June 2017, 03:39 PM  SEG AFA Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Hills District of Sydney Posts: 517 Re: Legal question: The Constitution and ADF chaplains Quote:  The Irreverent Mr Black said PS:$94,200 a year.
Jesus, \$94k a year!

Quote:
 2 Timothy 4 provides a good model:
They must be after a clever forger as Timothy 1 and 2 are among the most disputed of all the epistles ascribed to Paul.
#6
10th June 2017, 06:19 PM
 DanDare Religion or Reality, choose... Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Posts: 7,453
Re: Legal question: The Constitution and ADF chaplains

Quote:
SEG said
Quote:
 workmx said Are ADF chaplains covered by part 118 of the Australian Constitution? They currently have no Humanist chaplains. Sent from my A1601 using Tapatalk
How do you know that there are no Humanist chaplains? I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case, as even professional secular counselors and psychologists are prohibited from positions in the school chaplaincy programme.
He didn't say there are no humanist chaplains. He said the Australian Defence force do not have chaplains that are formally humanist chaplains as opposed to christian or muslim etc.
__________________
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
-Thomas Jefferson

Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
#7
10th June 2017, 06:20 PM
 DanDare Religion or Reality, choose... Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Posts: 7,453
Re: Legal question: The Constitution and ADF chaplains

The use of the term "Faith" doesn't work for humanist chaplains though.
__________________
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
-Thomas Jefferson

Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
#8
10th June 2017, 06:59 PM
 SEG AFA Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Hills District of Sydney Posts: 517
Re: Legal question: The Constitution and ADF chaplains

Quote:
 DanDare said He didn't say there are no humanist chaplains. He said the Australian Defence force do not have chaplains that are formally humanist chaplains as opposed to christian or muslim etc.
Sorry, I must be missing something as that is exactly what he said and not what you are saying. Unless there used to be, but there are none now?

Last edited by SEG; 10th June 2017 at 07:02 PM.
#9
12th June 2017, 12:38 PM
 Darwinsbulldog AFA Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Perth Posts: 18,670
Re: Legal question: The Constitution and ADF chaplains

As some of you may know, I am a military history hobbyist. This in part means I often read about "unit histories", war diaries of regiments etc.

An interesting question is what role [if any] do military chaplains have in war crimes? To mention the positive role first, chaplains have traditionally been counsellors [although most are not trained in psychology and psychiatry]. There seems to be some positive role here, in helping soldiers deal with grief. But professional psychologists or psychiatrists would tend to do a better job of it.

Less pleasing is the way military chaplains can "take sides". That is, actively encourage hatred and dehumanisation of the enemy. As an atheist I don't give a flying fuck of last communion, or religious burial rites, and the like, but the refusal of a military padre to perform religious services or functions for enemy dead and dying tend to send the message that the enemy might be sub-human or non human to the troops. Indeed, there was one incident in the Korean war where a chaplain attached to an Australian infantry battalion refused to perform religious ceremonies or services on enemy dead and dying, even after the troops requested it.

Even Waffen-SS doctors during World War Two, [at least on The Western Front] treated wounded enemy combatants with the same consideration as they would have treated their own wounded on many occasions.

As Australian army chaplains have commissions [as in many reputable armies], presumably due to their "professional" status, they bear responsibility to set an example of good just war practice, and not be a party indirectly or directly in war crimes.

Further, as commissioned officers, they report, via their senior officer, ultimately to the government, which in the case of Australia, is parliament and the Prime Minister.

But the secrecy of religious organisations is notorious. For example, during World War Two, intelligence services of the United States of America decrypted the Vatican codes.

It makes one wonder just how much influence churches have had, both positive and negative, on the proper conduct of priests, chaplains etc during war, and how this may impact the behaviour of troops under the stressful and vile conditions of war. Given the lack of honesty, transparency and true cooperation of the various church organisations at the on-going Royal Commission into institutional child abuse, I have no confidence in the assumption that Military Chaplains are invariably a source of good or a moderating influence on the behaviour of Australian, or indeed, any nation's soldiers in times of war.

Of course, some argue that all war is a war crime, and it is hard not to find some sympathy with that viewpoint. But to my mind, when war is really necessary and inevitable, it is an ethical imperative to make our behaviour in war conform to international legal and ethical standards, and certainly to be very vigilant on the subject of potential sources of war crimes, wherever or whatever the source may be.
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#10
13th June 2017, 11:45 AM
 Blue Lightning "Mr Charles Darwin had the gall to ask" Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Sydney Posts: 6,104
Re: Legal question: The Constitution and ADF chaplains

The issue is trickier than at first sight appears.

Section 116 of our Constitution was a modified amalgam of the establishment clause (within he First Amendment) and the "no religious test clause" (within Article VI, Section 3) of the United States Constitution.

As we know from the DOGS case, the textual differences in our s116 means that it doesn't always have the same operation as the US provisions, but nevertheless, any sensible analysis of a novel s116 question should carefully consider the US cases.

There have been several US cases dealing with their military chaplains, in which they have been held to be constitutional, even given the establishment clause and the no religious test clause.

ATM, I wouldn't want to offer a view about the effect of s116 without more reading.
__________________
"Just stick to the idea that science is just about making descriptive models of natural phenomena, whose emergent predictions are tested to destruction" - Woof!
"Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

Last edited by Blue Lightning; 13th June 2017 at 11:46 AM.
 The Irreverent Mr Black, Darwinsbulldog thanked this post

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