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Old 21st May 2017, 07:58 PM
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Default Christian Barrister Offers Flawed Evidence as the Truth

This skeptical Alpha Course video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCJKIHtwdCU criticizes the brain-washing techniques in the Christian learning programme, and how the barrister promoting it is either ignorant of the facts of the evidence of Jesus, or prefers to ignore them to build his case.

This course has been very successful in England (it has a turnover of over 10,000,000 pounds and has now established itself in Australia.

Nicky Gumbel tries to establish his authority by stating this:

Quote:
"I came from a family of lawyers, I practiced as a barrister for ten years myself.

My son has just qualified as a barrister, my daughter has just qualified as a barrister, my sister is a barrister, my mother was a barrister,
my father was a barrister, my grandfathers on both sides were barristers, my uncle was a barrister, if we would have had a cat, it would have been a barrister."
I consider this course as a brainwashing of the attendees which utilises classic Christian indoctrination techniques. I would appreciate any comments or any member's experiences of the course in Australia.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 12:32 AM
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Default Re: Christian Barrister Offers Flawed Evidence as the Truth

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SEG said View Post
This skeptical Alpha Course video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCJKIHtwdCU criticizes the brain-washing techniques in the Christian learning programme, and how the barrister promoting it is either ignorant of the facts of the evidence of Jesus, or prefers to ignore them to build his case.

This course has been very successful in England (it has a turnover of over 10,000,000 pounds and has now established itself in Australia.

Nicky Gumbel tries to establish his authority by stating this:

Quote:
"I came from a family of lawyers, I practiced as a barrister for ten years myself.

My son has just qualified as a barrister, my daughter has just qualified as a barrister, my sister is a barrister, my mother was a barrister,
my father was a barrister, my grandfathers on both sides were barristers, my uncle was a barrister, if we would have had a cat, it would have been a barrister."
I consider this course as a brainwashing of the attendees which utilises classic Christian indoctrination techniques. I would appreciate any comments or any member's experiences of the course in Australia.
Darwinsgift, on this YouTube video very handily confutes, invalidates the case made for a historical Jesus from ancient writings, so-called sources.

Give the scholarly lie to any claimed historical authentication for Jesus and the whole Christian gospel edifice collapses like a house of cards.

I am very dubious about Nicky Gumble believing this propaganda himself. A seducer.

I share Darwinsgift's animus towards this dodgy character. Quoting Hitchens, he remarks, 'if he took an enema you could bury him in a matchbox'.

Another pernicious cult.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:30 AM
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Default Re: Christian Barrister Offers Flawed Evidence as the Truth

Thanks Strato. Yes, in that Youtube clip, he delivers Josephus' TF as if it is undisputed evidence of the existence of Jesus. They do a pan of the crowd that appears in awe at this incredibly obvious "evidence".

Surely as a barrister he would know that even mainstream Christian apologists dismiss at least part of it as forgery?

It looks like they are accepting of atheist views here: "Conversation – There is a discussion after the talk where you can share your thoughts and ideas on the session’s topic. You can say anything"

From what I've read they get around "difficult" questions by separating the engager into a small group, so that the class won't be disturbed.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 08:45 AM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Christian Barrister Offers Flawed Evidence as the Truth

That's a good call on how Josephus is used as if it were "evidence". I loved the way he deferred to reading from a tatty old book to give the aura of authority from what is presented as if it were an ancient law book - it goes without saying that there are no references provided.

Edit: I would add that it is a claim too far to say that no contemporary writer wrote about Jesus, but rather it should be stated that an incredible amount of energy has gone into searching for contemporary accounts and not one such piece of evidence has yet been uncovered.

Back to Gumbel he certainly is not trained in science. So sad to see a barrister throwing the word "science" around so loosely.
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Last edited by wadaye; 22nd May 2017 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 08:54 AM
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Default Re: Christian Barrister Offers Flawed Evidence as the Truth

The non-historicity of Josephus would be for his learned friend on the other side of the courtroom to submit.

The chap is only advocating for one "client", after all.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 09:11 AM
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Default Re: Christian Barrister Offers Flawed Evidence as the Truth

Yes and he is playing in a court with no opposition or judge.
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Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

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Old 22nd May 2017, 01:09 PM
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Default Re: Christian Barrister Offers Flawed Evidence as the Truth

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Yes and he is playing in a court with no opposition or judge.
Yes, and thus no cross-examination. A Jewish historian working for the Romans would not be well received by calling a crucified criminal "the Christ" or by saying, "...if it be lawful to call him a man". An astute barrister may have had something to say about whether it was lawful or not.

Maybe Gumbel was unaware of the controversy, but I very much doubt it.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 01:26 PM
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Default Re: Christian Barrister Offers Flawed Evidence as the Truth

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Strato said View Post
Darwinsgift, on this YouTube video very handily confutes, invalidates the case made for a historical Jesus from ancient writings, so-called sources.

Give the scholarly lie to any claimed historical authentication for Jesus and the whole Christian gospel edifice collapses like a house of cards.

I am very dubious about Nicky Gumble believing this propaganda himself. A seducer.

I share Darwinsgift's animus towards this dodgy character. Quoting Hitchens, he remarks, 'if he took an enema you could bury him in a matchbox'.

Another pernicious cult.
I don't know whether this is a cult, as it supposed to be an ecumenical refresher course, but I suppose it is in the strict sense. Would you agree that it is brainwashing? A Christian friend of mine said it wasn't brainwashing as there is no force applied. I disagreed, as it is forcing it down their throats in a metaphorical sense. I don't think Gumbel is lying either, but he certainly doesn't advance any contrary arguments.

After he dodgily establishes Jesus' historicity, he leaves it there as a given and goes on with the rest of the course. I am tempted to go to one of the courses and see what happens when I try to politely offer some rebuttals. The courses are free btw.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Christian Barrister Offers Flawed Evidence as the Truth

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SEG said View Post
My son has just qualified as a barrister, my daughter has just qualified as a barrister, my sister is a barrister, my mother was a barrister,
my father was a barrister, my grandfathers on both sides were barristers, my uncle was a barrister, if we would have had a cat, it would have been a barrister.
I am Brian of Nazareth, and so is my wife
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Old 22nd May 2017, 08:21 PM
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Default Re: Christian Barrister Offers Flawed Evidence as the Truth

Darwinsgift comes across as mistrustful of barristers.

Of course there are are barristers with integrity. We have one among our AFA colleagues.
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