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  #11  
Old 16th May 2017, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: Child indoctrination - is it abusive enough to be a crime?

Yeah its true enough MrB. I think each generation is generally better than the last. As a parent i keep that in mind with every interaction.
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  #12  
Old 16th May 2017, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Child indoctrination - is it abusive enough to be a crime?

Mr B's post sums it up. I was a catholic because my parents were catholic. I also believed the Liberal party held the best hope for my future because my parents were Liberal party voters.

With maturity, I came to the position that my parents were mistaken. However, my daughter is an atheist, anarchist sympathising, Greens supporter. She has also been indoctrinated. I can tell myself I have tried to present a balanced view and she found these positions herself - but that would be utter bullshit.

I am ok with it because I believe I am right... and that should make me uncomfortable.
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  #13  
Old 16th May 2017, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: Child indoctrination - is it abusive enough to be a crime?

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odd said View Post
Mr B's post sums it up. I was a catholic because my parents were catholic. I also believed the Liberal party held the best hope for my future because my parents were Liberal party voters.

With maturity, I came to the position that my parents were mistaken. However, my daughter is an atheist, anarchist sympathising, Greens supporter. She has also been indoctrinated. I can tell myself I have tried to present a balanced view and she found these positions herself - but that would be utter bullshit.

I am ok with it because I believe I am right... and that should make me uncomfortable.
Same. But my son, 18, calls me out quite often on things that he clearly knows more about, like IT philosophy, AI, social media, my politics and science i'm new to. I dont assume i know better but engage as a human engages as any other human would engage. In the end all i can give my children is the practice of critical thought and if that critical thought compromises something i've always believed then thats cool.
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  #14  
Old 16th May 2017, 10:44 PM
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Default Re: Child indoctrination - is it abusive enough to be a crime?

Fervent religiosity is infantilising anyway. Indoctrinated parent play out the same schema with their childten as they imagine is being played out between them and their celestial 'Fathers'.
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  #15  
Old 16th May 2017, 10:57 PM
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Default Re: Child indoctrination - is it abusive enough to be a crime?

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Fervent religiosity is infantilising anyway. Indoctrinated parent play out the same schema with their childten as they imagine is being played out between them and their celestial 'Fathers'.
Yeah, that might be at play but also the parents manifest love that is apparent every single day in a million ways is kind of different to the fantasy sky gods love which is imaginary. There is a difference, at least mostly.
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  #16  
Old 16th May 2017, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: Child indoctrination - is it abusive enough to be a crime?

A good thread this.

We invest kids with memes, many unknowingly. Memes could be construed to have the active intention to get themselves maximally replicated in minds.

Like genes, they do serve that end though uncomprehendingly, that is self replication in perpetuity.

It is adults who are responsible for intentionality, for transmitting and inculcating memes into young minds, just as they are responsible concerning the progeny they produce. Indoctrinating kids about their inherent sinfulness is tantamount to abuse. It is abuse.

My kids know me for an atheist but that is subsumed under free thinking, there being no subject undiscussable with me. That's a way of thinking. Is this still a meme? There are healthy, necessary memes.

They also know that I am implicitly sceptical about the notion of the sacred as a conceit. And as regards Anzac Day which is sacrosanct, each campaign Australia has been contributor to or undertaken, like WW1, WW11, Vietnam, East Timor, cannot be immune to critique.

The Australian diggers' stirring mateship, bravery and loyalty in the trenches of WW1 is rightfully legendary, but 60,000 died horribly, most of them childless. This was senseless slaughter and sacrifice, arguably. They were volunteers fighting for God, King and country. This was the pervasive meme and it was imperative it be promoted, personalised. It was an imperial war. The royal cousins of Europe were all quarrelling. Openly 'deep thinkers' who questioned all this, very likely socialists, were pariahs.

Tony Abbott's rhetoric about 'Western, Christian values' is doctrinal and authoritarian. It is propaganda. The Jesuits invented propaganda.

If democracy, civil freedoms, common law found their provenance in the European Enlightenment, they are nevertheless universal, always were latently and not the preserve of the "Christian" West as Abbott seeks to promulgate upon us.

So what we impart to or impose upon the young ones has profound consequences for them. It can liberate or it can repress, stunt, pervert. I do love that Phillip Larkin poem Mr. Black put up. Quite the melancholic, was Larkin, the fatalist. He haunted the graveyards of damp, cold country churches. But the poem is profound. It would seem we all have to transcend the home culture to some degree.

We adults are responsible for the memes we invent or sustain and what we transmit to kids.
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Last edited by Strato; 16th May 2017 at 11:35 PM.
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  #17  
Old 17th May 2017, 12:04 AM
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Default Re: Child indoctrination - is it abusive enough to be a crime?

Butt our humanistic free thinking pro critical analytical secular outlook is also just a meme that our kids have inherited from us and, ironically, if that inheritance leads to something we would find horrifying, like an automated decision making AI that the kids think is awesome and leads to wonderful life experiences?

What if our critical thinking kids discover solutions to happiness and politics and social order that have nothing to do with critical thinking, as far as we understand it within a humanist context?

We could be wrong about everything. Lol!
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  #18  
Old 17th May 2017, 10:43 AM
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Default Re: Child indoctrination - is it abusive enough to be a crime?

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pipbarber said View Post
...

What if our critical thinking kids discover solutions to happiness and politics and social order that have nothing to do with critical thinking, as far as we understand it within a humanist context?
...
Then we disinherit them, renounce our parental obligations to them, or failing that beat them with sticks - for their own good of course.
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  #19  
Old 17th May 2017, 12:44 PM
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Default Re: Child indoctrination - is it abusive enough to be a crime?

I don't what specifically happened during my father's childhood. I know his maternal grandparents were very, very religious, his mother was religious (not so strongly though) and he was forced to be an altar boy.

Anyway, whatever happened led him to consider religious indoctrination of children to be a form of abuse (mental I guess) so, when it came to his children, he was adamant that religion would not be forced on any of us and none of us would be christened/baptised/whatever.

I can't see religions giving up the religious indoctrination of children because it guarantees fresh meat. But oh if only children could grow up without their minds being shackled with religiosity and being allowed to make the decision for themselves as adults.
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  #20  
Old 17th May 2017, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: Child indoctrination - is it abusive enough to be a crime?

Sometimes the indoctrination falls (to use a biblical metaphor) on very stony ground indeed.

A young Goat, in his Prep Grade year, was witnessing an anglican christening.

At a crucial point of the proceedings, the young victim began crying loudly.

Cue little Black, stomping straight down the aisle, tugging the vicar's lacy vest thingy, and telling Reverend he was a nasty person, because he put water on babies' heads and made them cry.

Then I started walking home.

(Epic telling-off and punishment redacted.)
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