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  #11  
Old 9th May 2017, 12:11 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Can We Choose to be an Atheist or a Theist

That philosopher we hear so much of from theists posited the same, I refer of course to Pascal who constructed a wager such that it should be "sensible" to believe in god "just in case," it was an attempt to make believing in god a rational, if not logical decision. It had its issues, not the least being that he was fixated on only one god, but lets leave that there for now and look at another aspect. if you choose to believe in a god, are you actually believing or just pretending to believe?


It also brings up another question of course, and one which theists have had problems with for millennia, how do you know the person standing next to you saying "hail mary," or indeed "mud be upon his name" in the case of Pikiwoki actually believes the same as you or is just pretending to believe so that you don't burn/ostracise/banish or otherwise discriminate against them?


Theists say, "I choose to believe in god because," but unfortunately the thinking often stops there. If you choose to believe something because of something outside you are you actually choosing or is the choice being made for you? I could say "I choose not to believe in god because there is no evidence." Is that then really a choice or a reflection of my nature?


Many people here once believed in god, now they don't believe in god, I doubt if anyone can pick a point where they could say, "at his moment I chose to no longer believe." Natures change, people change, we change from believing to not believing, it often happens in such a way that we can't actually pin down the exact moment we stopped believing, we don't choose!
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  #12  
Old 9th May 2017, 12:28 PM
Madame Tarot Madame Tarot is offline
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Default Re: Can We Choose to be an Atheist or a Theist

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The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
What's the reasoning behind the orange writing? Meditation is sitting, thinking, or not-thinking, and there is no obvious tie-in with belief, by choice or otherwise, is there?
I can't recall who it was, or even if it was on this forum, but they claim meditation, when they had an unresolved issue, helped them make a decision.

So I threw it in here for good measure.
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  #13  
Old 9th May 2017, 12:53 PM
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Default Re: Can We Choose to be an Atheist or a Theist

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Madame Tarot said View Post
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The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
What's the reasoning behind the orange writing? Meditation is sitting, thinking, or not-thinking, and there is no obvious tie-in with belief, by choice or otherwise, is there?
I can't recall who it was, or even if it was on this forum, but they claim meditation, when they had an unresolved issue, helped them make a decision.

So I threw it in here for good measure.
So, a tenuous connection at best? Okay, thanks.

I was supposing there might be more.
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Old 9th May 2017, 01:12 PM
Madame Tarot Madame Tarot is offline
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Default Re: Can We Choose to be an Atheist or a Theist

Thanks stevebrooks there is some intereseting stuff in your post.

Here is a sidestep comment.

Gods, the plural of God is a fascinating concept.

If a valid argument can be put forward for one God then it would seem that the same argument would hold true for other Gods.

You may have come across Johnny B Good in a forum somewhere and he was/is a lay clergyman and of course adamant about God being real and his reasoning is that an "eye" is too complex to have come about without a God to design it.

From a reason to homage God viewpoint, there are at least 2 flaws in that argument.

1) Animal (and human) species on earth reproduce so why would the creator God care about the welfare of any individual animal (or human) by design he has replacements by reproduction and even made the task enjoyable enough to make the particpants keen to do it.
2) If in fact an eye is too complex to come about by accident thereby needing a God then a whole animal is even more complex so thereby possibly needing a whole team of specialsit Gods. A brain specialist God and kidney specialist god and even a skin specialist God.

The idea of Gods plural is in the word of Popeye "Faskinating".
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  #15  
Old 9th May 2017, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: Can We Choose to be an Atheist or a Theist

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Madame Tarot said View Post
Thanks stevebrooks there is some intereseting stuff in your post.

Here is a sidestep comment.

Gods, the plural of God is a fascinating concept.

If a valid argument can be put forward for one God then it would seem that the same argument would hold true for other Gods.

You may have come across Johnny B Good in a forum somewhere and he was/is a lay clergyman and of course adamant about God being real and his reasoning is that an "eye" is too complex to have come about without a God to design it.

From a reason to homage God viewpoint, there are at least 2 flaws in that argument.

1) Animal (and human) species on earth reproduce so why would the creator God care about the welfare of any individual animal (or human) by design he has replacements by reproduction and even made the task enjoyable enough to make the particpants keen to do it.
2) If in fact an eye is too complex to come about by accident thereby needing a God then a whole animal is even more complex so thereby possibly needing a whole team of specialsit Gods. A brain specialist God and kidney specialist god and even a skin specialist God.

The idea of Gods plural is in the word of Popeye "Faskinating".
William of Ockham, the dude who invented the logic tool, named after him, was one for paring down the impossible and improbable, shaving off the unnecessary. That's why his idea is "Occam's Razor".

Now, even most goddists are going to say the idea of a god is so wonderful as to be well-nigh-impossible. Wouldn't the odds against two or more, and them working in such neatly-separated specialist fields, be even more impossible?

As far as reproduction being some antidote for a deity's duty of care or love of creations, you may be stretching your limitation of imaginary beings a bit, even though it's tempting to come up with Kryptonite every time you see a Superman idea.
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Old 9th May 2017, 01:40 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Can We Choose to be an Atheist or a Theist

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Madame Tarot said View Post
Quote:
The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
What's the reasoning behind the orange writing? Meditation is sitting, thinking, or not-thinking, and there is no obvious tie-in with belief, by choice or otherwise, is there?
I can't recall who it was, or even if it was on this forum, but they claim meditation, when they had an unresolved issue, helped them make a decision.

So I threw it in here for good measure.
I recently listened to a radio program from somebody who had terrible agony making any decisions and finally found a solution in a piece of string with a weight and she would see which way ot fell to make her inevitably binary decision for her. Of cpurse it requires the distillation of any decision into a binary choice where there really shouldn't be any distinct advantage to one way or the other.
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Old 9th May 2017, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: Can We Choose to be an Atheist or a Theist

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Madame Tarot said View Post
I can't recall who it was, or even if it was on this forum, but they claim meditation, when they had an unresolved issue, helped them make a decision.

So I threw it in here for good measure.
Meditation is really just thinking about something with a side salad of woo.
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  #18  
Old 9th May 2017, 04:10 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Can We Choose to be an Atheist or a Theist

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Meditation is really just thinking about something with a side salad of woo.


Or indeed in many cases purposefully not thinking about anything at all, with a side salad of woo
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  #19  
Old 9th May 2017, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: Can We Choose to be an Atheist or a Theist

I chose to be an atheist. Logic, evidence from self and friends detected various errors. Re-coded world as not magical. It works, the end.
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  #20  
Old 9th May 2017, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: Can We Choose to be an Atheist or a Theist

Atheism for me is just a conclusion that I have arrived at. I did choose to accept the premise there is a lack of evidence for a god or gods or supernatural beings.

In regards to theism, if I were to convert (especially to something such as Creationism) - I would need to choose to ignore all scientific data that we have to date.

That's not a choice I would want to make.
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