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Old 1st May 2017, 03:57 PM
Japh Japh is offline
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Default Behold the Man, Pt 1 from iPastor... needs refuting

Hey everyone, I saw this recent post around Easter time talking about the historicity of Jesus by a pastor here in Hobart.

I'm not convinced by much of the data he puts forward, but it is the kind of stuff that would be very compelling to Christians, and I lack the information to refute it. I'm not even sure where to start researching for some of the points raised.

Would love to hear your thoughts:

http://www.ipastor.com.au/behold-the-man-pt-1/

Note: I'm a total newbie to these forums, so if I've posted this in the wrong place or way, I'd appreciate instruction
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Old 1st May 2017, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: Behold the Man, Pt 1 from iPastor... needs refuting

Hey Japh,

You might have a quick look at this thread about historicity. It's 39 pages long but there are bound to be some good threads and equally good arguments for both sides of the debate.

The thread is actually closed for posting at the moment - this issue really can generate some heat so you may want to skip the bickering and hit the links. At the very least it'll give you some authors to pursue.

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/...ht=historicity
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Old 1st May 2017, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: Behold the Man, Pt 1 from iPastor... needs refuting

Quote:
Japh said View Post
Hey everyone, I saw this recent post around Easter time talking about the historicity of Jesus by a pastor here in Hobart.

I'm not convinced by much of the data he puts forward, but it is the kind of stuff that would be very compelling to Christians, and I lack the information to refute it. I'm not even sure where to start researching for some of the points raised.

Would love to hear your thoughts:

http://www.ipastor.com.au/behold-the-man-pt-1/

Note: I'm a total newbie to these forums, so if I've posted this in the wrong place or way, I'd appreciate instruction
The plural of anecdote is not data.

Technically the whole thing begs the question.

Also see Gish Gallop.

Quote:
The Gish Gallop (also known as proof by verbosity[1]) is the fallacious debate tactic of drowning your opponent in a flood of individually-weak arguments in order to prevent rebuttal of the whole argument collection without great effort. The Gish Gallop is a belt-fed version of the on the spot fallacy, as it's unreasonable for anyone to have a well-composed answer immediately available to every argument present in the Gallop. The Gish Gallop is named after creationist Duane Gish, who often abused it.
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Atheist: n; A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
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Old 1st May 2017, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: Behold the Man, Pt 1 from iPastor... needs refuting

Sorry I could not be bothered to read past the first few lines of his proof, but the words Self Fulfilling Prophesy sprang to mind. The Life of Brian has as much authenticity.
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Old 1st May 2017, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: Behold the Man, Pt 1 from iPastor... needs refuting

Welcome Japh.

Wow, the bible iz tru coz it sez so, in the bible!!1!

Never gets old that one.

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Old 1st May 2017, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: Behold the Man, Pt 1 from iPastor... needs refuting

'Reason because everyone has it, even those without faith'


Even those atheists?! Pffftt.. pull the other one.
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Old 1st May 2017, 06:17 PM
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Default Re: Behold the Man, Pt 1 from iPastor... needs refuting

Note: I'm going to write this based upon the generally-held scholarly consensus that Jesus-the-preacher was an actual dude, though a wholly unmagical one, who got nailed to a stick for insurgency. It is possible the fucker was entirely invented, but I've not come across a convincing argument to adopt that position. That said:

I'm not likely to read the entire thing, and I don't have time to fisk it, but the fuckknucklery about prophesy is blatant.

Almost every single example of 'prophesies that Jesus fulfilled' was one of two things:

1) Bullshit Christians made up after the fact to claim that Jesus fullfilled a prophesy; or
2) Wasn't originally a prophesy about the purported messiah in the first place.

An example of 1) is the birth narratives taking place in Bethlehem. It was well known that Yeshua was from a shitty little backwater called Nazareth, but there were prophesies that placed the birth of the Messiah as being in Bethlehem, so Christians had to come up with a work-around to explain that shit away. In one of the stories, Jesus goes back to Nazareth (his home town) and gets run out on a rail because everyone there knows this cunt isn't a fucking messiah.

There are two accounts of Jesus' alleged descent from the line of David - and they are mutually contradictory - and they only exist because of the need for the Messiah to fulfill prophesy that said that's how it would happen. There may be a bnit of a problem here, though, because Jews count ancestry through the matrilinear line, so the alleged descent - which is patrilinear - looks an awful lot like it was made up by ignorant fucks who didn't know the first thing about Jews.

Oh, this next bit is fucking golden: "He struck history with such force that he split it in two."

The fucking BC/AD dating system didn't even come about until 600 years after the mendicant rabble-rouser was supposedly stapled to a stick, and it's only so widely in play in modernity because of the accidents of history that have had a lot of very powerful civilisations inheriting one version or another of something calling itself Christendom. There's nothing fucking magical about the fact that Europeans had the goddamn guns.

Ok, number 3 is just fundamentally stupid, and rests upon the utterly unproven and frankly laughable assumption of the soul. "People" don't "come into the world." We emerge from it, a complex and temporary concatenation of energetic interactions, and then we fucking dissipate.

The one thing that can be taken from this bullshit about Jesus' purpose allegedly being to die is the very real nature of Christianity - and the Judaism it sprang from - as essentially necromantic. Judaism, in its requirements for blood sacrifice - still in force in various manifestations of the religion today - requires death as propitiation of the wrath of YHVH. That's from hella early on, with all the fucking rules about how and where and how many fucking chickens and goats and sheep and bulls have to be sacrificed. It even shows up with those fuckers who are still in the process of trying to breed the perfect calf to sacrifice to bring about the whatever.

Jesus having to die to take away the sin of the world or whatever other malarkey you wish to frame it as is two things:

1) a post hoc rationalisation to explain why this supposed King of the Jews (who in most prophesies is actually supposed to rise as a military leader and literally take over the entire fucking planet) got summarily butchered by the Legion instead of marching to power at the head of a triumphant nation of Israel, and;

2) a nice little twist, because you can pretend, "Oh, he was always meant to do that - he was the perfect sacrifice, because did we mention that we're a fucking death cult and the creator of everything can only be appeased by the scent of blood?"

Oh, it seems I did read the whole thing. Anyway, the last bit is a demonstration of "sucking your own dick to spite your face." John's "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" spiel (see? I can still do the off-the-cuff recitations. Yay me.) is amost entirely divorced from any other Biblical blather. It certainly has sweet fuck-all to do with any of the Jewish narratives, and you'd kinda think that this Word character would have fucking showed up a little earlier in the piece, yeah? Like, back when Moses and YHVH were best buds, or when Solomon was writing love poetry and other porn. You'd think that at some time during the 600-odd years some of those fucks were palling around with the Creator of the Universe, the mildly important-because-it-is-the-central-fact-of-all-existence would have come up in conversation.

Instead, it looks remarkably like an amateurish retcon, fanfic excuses and handwaving that only stuck around as long as it has because the vast majority of the time this nonsense has been around was well before Gutenberg and his spiritual descendant Berners-Lee were expelled from their mothers' cunts to inflict information technology upon a world full of monkeys in shoes, who would likely have kept on believing fairy stories were literally true accounts of ... oh, fuck. Yep, it's still happening.

In a world where multiple plenitudes more than the Library of Alexandria are within literal grasp of the fingertips of almost anyone, stories about magical fuckwits still hold the world hostage.

The plus side is twofold: The podcast should be happening soon, and nature doesn't give two shits if we blow ourselves to smithereens.

Yay us.
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Old 1st May 2017, 06:41 PM
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Default Re: Behold the Man, Pt 1 from iPastor... needs refuting

That's what I would have said if I was smart enough.
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Old 1st May 2017, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Behold the Man, Pt 1 from iPastor... needs refuting

Love the "stapled to a stick" bit! Brilliant!
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Old 2nd May 2017, 12:14 AM
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Default Re: Behold the Man, Pt 1 from iPastor... needs refuting

No doubt about you Goldenmane.
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