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  #21  
Old 20th January 2017, 08:05 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: The struggles of Middle Eastern Atheists at home and away from home

My gran and great-gran used to wear head-scarves when they went down the shops in London.

Personally, I am more concerned that our societies would change some general freedom to counter a specific type of Islam than I am of them wearing particular garments.

I don't support anyone being forced to wear a particular garment, though. And I would consider it an infringement on their liberties in our societies.
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  #22  
Old 20th January 2017, 09:03 PM
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My gran and great-gran used to wear head-scarves when they went down the shops in London.

Personally, I am more concerned that our societies would change some general freedom to counter a specific type of Islam than I am of them wearing particular garments.

I don't support anyone being forced to wear a particular garment, though. And I would consider it an infringement on their liberties in our societies.
Some point and laugh at dem crazy Muslims rugging themselves up all over, but most societies have had dumb-fuck repressive ideas about clothes, now and in the past.

I mean, 40 centigrade and 100% humidity, but how many societies would take it as unremarkable if a person stripped off, cooled off under a public fountain, dressed and continued on their way?

I think most of the human race is fucked up about clothes.
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  #23  
Old 20th January 2017, 11:27 PM
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I think most of the human race is fucked up about clothes.
Wholeheartedly agreed, although I do rather appreciate clothes covering up all those acres of human flesh that I really do not want to see half an hour after waking on the way to work.
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  #24  
Old 21st January 2017, 11:41 AM
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Wholeheartedly agreed, although I do rather appreciate clothes covering up all those acres of human flesh that I really do not want to see half an hour after waking on the way to work.
But that urge is coming from you! Which is fine. Imposed from above, not so much. Often, being naked puts us at risk of injury. I have no objection to wearing a hard hat on a building site, or shoes or coveralls or whatever. For a reason, but not when society says "Just because!". Because what? because some magic-man might be offended. [Or his minions?]. Or if I go and dress up to be part of an event, like going dancing or dinner with my partner and friends.

It is not unpleasant to be "more than a naked animal". Not because naked animals are bad, but because we can do a lot of things better than most animals. In such circumstances, reminding ourselves we are just apes can detract from that. But so long as there is no permanent denial of our animal-ness or mortality, no harm is done.
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Old 21st January 2017, 12:12 PM
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Life-Lover, could I get your impression on the burka and what you think about banning it?

It's just it keeps cropping up in the media and also on twitter where it seems atheists are really struggling with their position on banning.

I'll pop these posts in another thread if it goes all weird.

Thanks Wolty for asking me about my opinion of such a controversial topic.
I personally support banning Burka as it hides the person's identity.
However, I think it is ok to let women wear Hijab if they choose to do so.
Cheers.

Do you put any store into the idea that (some) women will not be allowed to leave the house if a ban is imposed?
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  #26  
Old 21st January 2017, 12:29 PM
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Cheers.

Do you put any store into the idea that (some) women will not be allowed to leave the house if a ban is imposed?
Not that i would support such a ban, but are they not laws against false imprisonment?
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Old 21st January 2017, 01:12 PM
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Cheers.

Do you put any store into the idea that (some) women will not be allowed to leave the house if a ban is imposed?
Not that i would support such a ban, but are they not laws against false imprisonment?
Yes. Though I wonder how many women will choose to prosecute their husbands when this occurs.

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  #28  
Old 21st January 2017, 02:06 PM
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Yes. Though I wonder how many women will choose to prosecute their husbands when this occurs.

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Excellent point.

Where is the line though? Religious thought tends to stimulate behaviors, some of them not acceptable to society. [Which varies from group to group, of course].

I should I say relio-cultural thought? In a religion that asserts female inferiority, the wearing of the religio-cultural clothing might help "persuade" the female not to prosecute their husbands.

Of course, women who don't wear "restrictive clothing" might also not prosecute their husbands for a crime committed against them. But let me suppose I am wrong, and such items of dress do not affect the psychology of decision-making, and such clothing has no sinister implications about an individual's ability to defend themselves against a wrong.

IF such clothing is perfectly innocent, then men too should wear it. Clothing is too often a "uniform", to channel conformity. A certain amount of conformity is necessary, for society to function. We assume for example, that the milk we buy has not been contaminated by poisons or pathogens, that everyone does their job with reasonable professionalism.

Jobs often have uniforms, sometimes for utility and sometimes to help the person conform. But how much "help" is too much? Too often the "wants" of the group are re-badged as "needs" . Some people don't like police or army uniforms, and probably a Waffen-SS uniform much less.
Uniforms certainly help unity within the group, but to out-groups, not so much.

Surely if everyone wears approximately similar clothing, there are less divisions in society? At a nude beach, for example, it is not immediately obvious who are the well-to-do, and who have to live on a tight budget. So there tends to be more amity around the volley-ball net, or so I imagine. People are not there for politics or religion or business, they are there to enjoy sun and surf. At the very least, it creates a neutral zone where people can relax and be just people.
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  #29  
Old 21st January 2017, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: The struggles of Middle Eastern Atheists at home and away from home

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Surely if everyone wears approximately similar clothing, there are less divisions in society? At a nude beach, for example, it is not immediately obvious who are the well-to-do, and who have to live on a tight budget. So there tends to be more amity around the volley-ball net, or so I imagine. People are not there for politics or religion or business, they are there to enjoy sun and surf. At the very least, it creates a neutral zone where people can relax and be just people.
It's something of an aside to the discussion at hand perhaps, but i managed to travel in China in the late 1980s. In the inland cities, where people stared and you felt like they'd not seen a white Westerner before, or not very often at least, everyone - men, women and kids - were getting about in more or less the same attire, a kind of denim blue shirt and trousers and a hat of the same color. It was horrifying to me. It felt like a prison.

I'm kind of sympathetic to the superficiality of fashion because of that experience, no matter how bad, in my opinion, the fashion is.

People shouldnt be forced not to wear something as much as they shouldnt be forced to wear something. The issue, in regard to female face coverings, is who exactly is doing the forcing and how the hell do we stop it.
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  #30  
Old 21st January 2017, 11:47 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: The struggles of Middle Eastern Atheists at home and away from home

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It's something of an aside to the discussion at hand perhaps, but i managed to travel in China in the late 1980s. In the inland cities, where people stared and you felt like they'd not seen a white Westerner before, or not very often at least, everyone - men, women and kids - were getting about in more or less the same attire, a kind of denim blue shirt and trousers....
That wasn't China! It was the UK! You must have taken a wrong turning at Albuquerque!
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