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  #21  
Old 29th December 2016, 09:04 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Is Athiesm A Science Or A Belief

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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
I do believe I choose to believe because I have questioned existence of god or gods and used to argue avidly with people that there was no god and that it was a man made construct. Ive had spiritual experiences within certain sects that gave me hope. Being atheist did not give me hope. I was bitter. I choose to believe in a higher power. I choose hope. I choose blind faith.

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Ive had spiritual experiences within certain sects
Sigh, sects and religious are experts at manipulating the human psychology to convince people they are having spiritual experiences, this has been demonstrated time and again, I give you "fly spray man"

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/23/af...icide-prophet/

These people genuinely believe they are having spiritual experiences by having insecticide sprayed in their faces, your experiences with cults and religions are not convincing to anyone, you should examine them more critically.

Quote:
Being atheist did not give me hope.
And, why should it? Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god or gods. If you are looking for hope try looking into some other isms, humanism for instance. You don't have to be an atheist to be a humanist and you may find the same hope there that you find in theism.

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I was bitter
Wtf has that got to do with atheism? I suspect it's not atheism that made you bitter, more likely the approbation of family and friends who were theists. But I am just guessing, I don't know and I'm not asking for your life story, but just not believing in a god or gods doesn't make bitterness, that usually comes from fellow humans.

Quote:
I choose hope
I see nothing of hope in religions and gods, they seem to be a singularly evil and violent group. Oh many members of religions are nice people, but the religions themselves encourage discrimination, homophobia and violence.

Quote:
I choose blind faith
Where exactly do you think you learned about god if not from parents and schools, peers and religious leaders. Do you think if no-one anywhere ever mentioned a god or the concept of god you would have still chosen to believe in a god?
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Last edited by stevebrooks; 29th December 2016 at 09:09 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #22  
Old 29th December 2016, 09:05 PM
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wolty wolty is offline
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Default Re: Is Athiesm A Science Or A Belief

I don't believe gods exist. Apparently the word that describes that position is 'atheist'.
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Atheist: n; A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
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  #23  
Old 29th December 2016, 09:11 PM
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Default Re: Is Athiesm A Science Or A Belief

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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
I feel no different other than this sadness at the cruelty of mankind and that there is nothing to hope for as man is vain and does not value his fellow man. Im bitter. I have a sense of hopelessness which i could try to fill with material things but am financially and physically unable to do as i am welfare dependant and disabled.
Having purpose in life is a consequence of life. It's a tautology but a true one. Purpose is not handed down from on high, it is generated by each individual for themselves.

As humans are a social species purpose is often linked to the welbeing of others, family, friends and society in general.

The "how can you have purpose without god" canard is an ancient one that only works if you have already drunk the theistic Kool-Aid.

As are the "you only hate god so you can do what you like" and "without god you can't have morals, there is nothing to stop you raping and killing" ones.

They are puerile and will only produce face-palms here.
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  #24  
Old 29th December 2016, 09:12 PM
EbonyBreeCaple EbonyBreeCaple is offline
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Default Re: Is Athiesm A Science Or A Belief

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stevebrooks said View Post
Sigh, sects and religious are experts at manipulating the human psychology to convince people they are having spiritual experiences, this has been demonstrated time and again, I give you "fly spray man"

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/23/af...icide-prophet/

These people genuinely believe they are having spiritual experiences by having insecticide sprayed in their faces, your experiences with cults and religions are not convincing to anyone, you should examine them more critically.



And, why should it? Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god or gods. If you are looking for hope try looking into some other isms, humanism for instance. You don't have to be an atheist to be a humanist and you may find the same hope there that you find in theism.



Wtf has that got to do with atheism? I suspect it's not atheism that made you bitter, more likely the approbation of family and friends who were theists. But I am just guessing, I don't know and I'm not asking for your life story, but just not believing in a god or gods doesn't make bitterness, that usually comes from fellow humans.



I see nothing of hope in religions and gods, they seem to be a singularly evil and violent group. Oh many members of religions are nice people, the but the religions themselves encourage discriminate, homophobia and violence.



Where exactly do you think you learned about god if not from parents and schools, peers and religious leaders. Do you think if no-one anywhere ever mentioned a god or the concept of god you would have still chosen to believe in a god?
I do self describe as a humanist and feel a sense of contributing to humanity through charitable deeds. This is not a by product of any religious pursuits. Im sure you are correct that had I not been indoctrinated throughout my early schooling in the belief in a deity that the idea of one with no evidence other than fables would seem ridiculous. Im not arguing FOR god or gods. Simply stating that I choose to believe in a theory if you will. I didnt want to antagonize nor do I expect people to defend atheism. Simply wondered why people are atheists. If there was a science behind it. So far Ive learned its not a choice. Its the lack of a belief and its spelled atheist not athiest. Theres more here but im trying to absorb it all.

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  #25  
Old 29th December 2016, 09:12 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: Is Athiesm A Science Or A Belief

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Is Athiesm A Science Or A Belief
Neither. It's the rejection of a specific or generalized claim.


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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
Do you choose to be an athiest simply because you do not believe in a God or Gods or is it a belief based on scientific theory?
The early part of that sentence is a little difficult because it confuses too many things. One doesn't really need to choose to become an atheist; one just needs to not believe in gods, at which point one is an atheist regardless of whether one realize it or not.


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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
My brother considers himself an athiest due to his beliefs in science. But I read in other areas that some people simply don't believe in God or Gods which Im taken to understand is the official definition of athiesm.
Strange that he has 'belief' in science. Really, if you are doing belief in science, you're doing it wrong. Science is about defining our uncertainty, not about producing quantities to believe in.




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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
As much as I am not religious I believe, with no actual evidence (other than hallucinating the hue of a red face that answered "God" when I asked who it was) in a higher power, an energy, a creator.
Using the term 'hallucination' seems to suggest that you yourself know it was a sensory/cognitive error, rather than being something real. Do you think you believe because you want to believe?



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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
I understand science presents evidence to support theories and as such as there is no evidence of a God or Gods existence an Athiest would therefore conclude that God does not exist.
It's actually poor reasoning indeed to do this: welp, no evidence, therefore X doesn't exist.

As they say; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

You'll find that the more cautious people do not engage in this form of fundamentalism. Instead, they are happy to suspend judgment about the existence of an entity, inspect claims that arise from those who have uncritically lent the concept credence, and evaluate ontology from there.

Basically, the real questions are:

1) Why are there so many gods? There have been over a million recorded gods in history.

2) As yet, no physical, independently verifiable evidence has been shown to establish or justify even a glimmer of belief in any of these gods.

3) Why is it that so many people believe in mutually contradictory gods and cannot provide so much as an ounce of evidence for their beliefs?

4) Why do individuals tend to be so sure about the god that happens to be the predominantly believed god in their geographical location? Had they been born elsewhere, would they just have believed in that locally appropriate god?

5) Why do the ineffable creators of the universe according to humans have so many human foibles and motivations?

6) Why do so many formulations of these gods care what we do with our willies, or what we think about?

7) Aren't we just projecting humanity and human agency onto the cosmos? Aren't we just apes scared of dying and believing in false hopes to get us past our fears?

As you can see - none of these are really scientific questions, and science hasn't got much to say on the subject of gods.


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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
Is there a science to disprove a God or Gods existence or is this basically a belief due to lack of evidence?
In some respects, there cannot be any scientific element here because humans are very careful to place their god outside of testability. As science is specifically geared towards learning about the mechanisms of natural phenomena, so it has no ability to process something that is wholly supernatural. Of course, it does mean that claims about gods or ghosts or alien invaders doing X activity in the real world should fall within the remit of science being able to experiment, but this usually just shows that there was a janitor with a mask and a grudge.



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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
I'm not criticizing athiesm. I believe everyone is entitled to follow a discipline in so much that that discipline is healthy and does not seek to harm others. Just asking a question to hopefully learn something from individuals who claim athiesm.
Atheism's not a discipline - it's merely the non-acceptance of a particular claim. You undoubtedly reject many, many gods of other groups - say Siva for example. But your rejection of Siva is of no specific import to you and is not based on deep philosophical cogitation or engaging with Hindu belief systems. That's all that atheism is as well, just they also include your god too.
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  #26  
Old 29th December 2016, 09:16 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: Is Athiesm A Science Or A Belief

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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
I assume your either going to tell me religion is taught to us or that athiesm is natural. Or heaven forbid you were forced to be an athiest?
I would assume that no one ever really makes this a choice: rather it's the product of realizing that the single (out of many) gods that you happened to be brought up believing is a load of baloney, rejecting that solitary claim, and consequently being definitionally an atheist.

You have to think about this more. One doesn't choose to become an atheist because this would suggest that the person so choosing still actually believes in a god or gods, elects to reject them and become an atheist. Whereas, in reality, what happens is the opposite, a person rejects their earlier held belief in their particular god, and consequently lacks belief in gods which is defined as 'atheism'.
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  #27  
Old 29th December 2016, 09:17 PM
EbonyBreeCaple EbonyBreeCaple is offline
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Default Re: Is Athiesm A Science Or A Belief

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Spearthrower said View Post
Neither. It's the rejection of a specific or generalized claim.




The early part of that sentence is a little difficult because it confuses too many things. One doesn't really need to choose to become an atheist; one just needs to not believe in gods, at which point one is an atheist regardless of whether one realize it or not.




Strange that he has 'belief' in science. Really, if you are doing belief in science, you're doing it wrong. Science is about defining our uncertainty, not about producing quantities to believe in.






Using the term 'hallucination' seems to suggest that you yourself know it was a sensory/cognitive error, rather than being something real. Do you think you believe because you want to believe?





It's actually poor reasoning indeed to do this: welp, no evidence, therefore X doesn't exist.

As they say; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

You'll find that the more cautious people do not engage in this form of fundamentalism. Instead, they are happy to suspend judgment about the existence of an entity, inspect claims that arise from those who have uncritically lent the concept credence, and evaluate ontology from there.

Basically, the real questions are:

1) Why are there so many gods? There have been over a million recorded gods in history.

2) As yet, no physical, independently verifiable evidence has been shown to establish or justify even a glimmer of belief in any of these gods.

3) Why is it that so many people believe in mutually contradictory gods and cannot provide so much as an ounce of evidence for their beliefs?

4) Why do individuals tend to be so sure about the god that happens to be the predominantly believed god in their geographical location? Had they been born elsewhere, would they just have believed in that locally appropriate god?

5) Why do the ineffable creators of the universe according to humans have so many human foibles and motivations?

6) Why do so many formulations of these gods care what we do with our willies, or what we think about?

7) Aren't we just projecting humanity and human agency onto the cosmos? Aren't we just apes scared of dying and believing in false hopes to get us past our fears?

As you can see - none of these are really scientific questions, and science hasn't got much to say on the subject of gods.




In some respects, there cannot be any scientific element here because humans are very careful to place their god outside of testability. As science is specifically geared towards learning about the mechanisms of natural phenomena, so it has no ability to process something that is wholly supernatural. Of course, it does mean that claims about gods or ghosts or alien invaders doing X activity in the real world should fall within the remit of science being able to experiment, but this usually just shows that there was a janitor with a mask and a grudge.





Atheism's not a discipline - it's merely the non-acceptance of a particular claim. You undoubtedly reject many, many gods of other groups - say Siva for example. But your rejection of Siva is of no specific import to you and is not based on deep philosophical cogitation or engaging with Hindu belief systems. That's all that atheism is as well, just they also include your god too.
I like your reply. You addressed every question thouroughly, politely and raitionally. Thank you for teaching me something.

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  #28  
Old 29th December 2016, 09:25 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
Pardon me. Athiest. Obviously I am not familiar athiesm therefore my question. To answer your question without assuming, I thought it was a choice just as I choose to believe in God. I have no evidence of Gods existing other than historical references from nearly every culture on earth. You have no evidence that Gods do not exist other than lack of quantifiable physical evidence. I chose to believe. You chose not to believe. Thats my reasoning. Feel free to educate me. Im not looking to aggravate or debate. Im hoping to learn something.
1) You can't appeal to references from every culture because the subjects of their beliefs are mutually contradictory. If there is a Christian creator god who made the heavens and Earth, then there can't be a Hindu Brahma who did the same. From a reasoned perspective, the mutually contradictory beliefs of human groups throughout the ages directly contradict the notion of actually existent gods and appear to be much more competently explained by human psychology.

2) A requirement based on having evidence that something doesn't exist is no position inhabited by any sensible person. You need to process what people are saying, not bring along these tired canards to the discussion! Not lending belief to something because there is no evidence is not equal to stating there is nothing because no evidence exists.

I will show you.

You may believe that you were conceived by your mother and father through sexual intercourse, but actually the truth is that Wabblumanjihok, the Spawning God, telekinetically placed you into your mother's womb after fashioning you out of sponge and tomato soup!

Now that I have told you this is so: do you believe it? You certainly do not have evidence that Wabblumanjihok does not exist, right? You didn't even know of Him until just now, so instead any formulation of disbelief in your part is not because you have evidence He doesn't exist, but because there's no good reason whatsoever to believe that He does!

Now apply it to your own god.
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  #29  
Old 29th December 2016, 09:28 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: Is Athiesm A Science Or A Belief

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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
I do believe I choose to believe because I have questioned existence of god or gods and used to argue avidly with people that there was no god and that it was a man made construct. Ive had spiritual experiences within certain sects that gave me hope. Being atheist did not give me hope. I was bitter. I choose to believe in a higher power. I choose hope. I choose blind faith.
Fascinating!

Why on Earth would you be bitter just because you don't believe in gods?

Did you live in a society where every positive element required some genuflection to the gods?

The parallel here then would be like children who tell their parents they don't think that Santa is real, and their parents respond by saying that if that's the case then the kid will no longer get presents. In this way, I could see how someone could become bitter about not lending belief to a socially acceptable entity, but I would still question the integrity of someone who decided to continue believing in Santa just so they got presents.
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  #30  
Old 29th December 2016, 09:30 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Is Athiesm A Science Or A Belief

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EbonyBreeCaple said View Post
Simply stating that I choose to believe in a theory if you will.
No, you can't choose to believe in a "theory."

From Wikipedia;

Quote:
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed, preferably using a written, pre-defined, protocol of observations and experiments.
If it requires "belief" it isn't a theory. Indeed the god "hypothesis" had been advanced so many times for testing and failed that it no longer even deserves the label hypothesis;

Again from Wikipedia:

Quote:
In science, a hypothesis is an idea or explanation that you then test through study and experimentation. Outside science, a theory or guess can also be called a hypothesis. A hypothesis is something more than a wild guess but less than a well-established theory.
For instance "prayer works to heal people" would be a hypothesis. We then set up a double blind experiment to test this hypothesis. This has been done and prayer was demonstrated to be of no healing benefit at all. many people claim personal experience or point to cases, but because proper scientific testing was not carried out to eliminate outside effects such as the placebo effect and social interaction these claims are baseless.

Based on correct testing we reject we hypothesis.

We can do the same with all other claims made on behalf of god or gods. World wide floods? We can and did test for that, no evidence at all. Sun standing still in the sky, the same. Weeping statues, the ones that have been subject to proper research demonstrate mundane sources, however almost no cases are put forward for testing because of this, people don't want their delusions shattered.

Every claim put forward to support the god hypothesis can be tested, and every one so far put forward has failed event the basic testing. So god is not a theory or even a hypothesis, it's now The God Delusion I am afraid.
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