School Chaplaincy

[Logic please]

Originally Posted by Xeno

Neil, do you have a reference for this please? It may be so but the last I recall seeing was more like 5-10%. Thanks.

FWIW, these were estimates given to the Vic Parliamentary inquiry:

Originally Posted by www.theage.com.au article extract

AT LEAST one in 20 Catholic priests in Melbourne is a child sex abuser, although the real figure is probably one in 15, the state inquiry into the churches' handling of sex abuse was told yesterday.
RMIT professor Des Cahill said his figures, based on analysing conviction rates of priests ordained from Melbourne's Corpus Christi College, closely matched a much larger American analysis...
"One in 20 is a minimum. It might be one in 15, perhaps not as high as one in 10," he said.

...which gives a figure of approx 6.67%, at 1/15. I note that this was from an academic contributor and not VicPol, but I've had a quick look at the VicPol inquiry written submission, and couldn't see those type of figures included within it.

Originally Posted by Neil Richardson

There is no reason to believe that the numbers are likely to be any less among the chaplains from the evangelical outfits which provide most bodies.

Argument from ignorance, I would've thought.

Originally Posted by Neil Richardson

Would you use one of these people on the strength of their being a good person by virtue of being a school chaplain?

Huh? Where has anyone argued for anything like this, in this thread? What relevance does it have to the ethicality of the innuendo-spreading scenario that your posts described?

Also, thanks for the article links you provided. I note that the first case is not yet finalised (next court date Oct 31), therefore presumption of innocence is still in force. And the second case resulted in no verdict being reached - again, presumption of innocence applies, AFAIK.

Although I acknowledge that non-conviction matters appear to impact on a Working With Children check, which may bring them "into play" for the purpose of chaplaincy.

[Ford]

If some school chaplains apply for the job to have a greater chance to express their paedophilia, does that imply that all teachers should be suspect? I think we need to keep our eye on the ball here and not get sidetracked into the paedophilia argument. The principle of separation of church and state must be the focus.
The American Founding Fathers wrote that into the constitution, not to promote Atheism, but to guarantee equality under the law to citizens of all religions and no religion.

At a funeral a few days ago, the pastor quoted John 14.6 while assuring us Uncle Bill was on his way to heaven. “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.”

I guess that cuts out Muslims and Hindus, in fact all except Christians, a huge slice of God's creation and that is exactly why John Howard introduced chaplains. He was counting on good old Aussie prejudice to pull in the 'Christian' (anti Muslim and anti boat people) vote and it worked.

Paedophilia should concern us of course, but the alienation of a sizable chunk of the Australian population by public schools appearing to be Christian schools must ring alarm bells. That is exactly the sort of discrimination that is fuelling sectarian violence around the world and we will have it here unless our public institutions are seen to be open and accessible to all.

Atheists are concerned that children are being presented with divisive and discredited myths as truth and so we should be, but should we not be just as concerned that our Federal Government is continuing a policy that was intended to polarise and will continue to polarise of our population?

In that we should find allies among the religious, even the many Christians who do listen to the equity argument. Not all subscribe to the message in John 14.6. I know Uncle Bill, a committed Anglican didn't.

[Ces]

Originally Posted by Membrain

I don't understand you. Do you mean I should insist that the position be reclassified as welfare worker of any religion or none? I might get an atheist nob!

I suppose the point of my argument is that I like what my school has, and if I didn't like it I would whinge. If other schools don't like their arrangement, they can whinge. I am not going to whinge for them just on principle.

Yes reclassify the position as welfare worker, dont even mention what religion they may or may not be, what has it got to do with anything? If your chaplain is so good they will easily get the job again without resorting to the faith card at the possible expense of other potential candidates. Atheist or any nobs would be weeded out in a meritorious process that we are all advocating.


If you aren't interested in the principles then what is the point of posting here, your post adds nothing to a discussion about the concept of school chaplaincy. It just says the issue isn't currently having a direct impact on you. Some people, in the same situation, try to fix the problem that is faced by others not so lucky, or that may be an issue for them later, and do this via forums such a this. Perhaps you are not that type of person. What does your information add to the topic? I don't understand.

You are right, of course. I have a fair bit of I'm all right, Jack and it trips me.

[stevebrooks]

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...-1226515058071

More money, the taking never stops.

[DanDare]

Originally Posted by stevebrooks

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...-1226515058071

More money, the taking never stops.

"The support of chaplains and pastoral care workers is invaluable for students who might be facing extra challenges in their lives or personal barriers to their learning," he said in a statement on Monday.

[tjarm69]

I found a list from an article, which I thought sums it up nicely!!

There are arguments for the chaplains in schools but they’re easily rebuked. Let’s try.
1. Chaplains are good friends for students.
So are trained counsellors.
2. Chaplains are a shoulder to lean on and provide good advice.
So do trained counsellors.
3. Chaplains help support staff and parents too.
So do trained counsellors.
4. Chaplains aren’t allowed to preach so they’re OK.
Neither are trained counsellors. Also, refer to the case in Victoria mentioned above.
5. Chaplains are non-denominational really, it says so in the guidelines!
Trained counsellors are definitely non-denominational. Also, refer to the case in Victoria.
6. They’re not harming anybody.
We’d be a lot safer spending the money on trained professionals. What will a chaplain say to that pregnant teenager? To the Muslim child? To the gay kid? To the girl or boy who wants to talk contraception? The kind of safe, considered and reasonable advice can be given by a counsellor. Not by a chaplain.

[DanDare]

Originally Posted by tjarm69

5. Chaplains are non-denominational really, it says so in the guidelines!
Trained counsellors are ...

... secular so religion doesn't come in to it at all.

[tjarm69]

Originally Posted by DanDare

... secular so religion doesn't come in to it at all.

[Ces]

I know I have lost my right to post on this thread due to self-interest, but I would like to add an anecdote.

I told my kids that the government had committed two hundred million dollars to pay the salaries of school chaplains and asked if they could see any problems with that. Their jaws hit the floor and they struggled for words. I thought flaming heck the kids can see how wrong supporting religion in school is and what a deficient adult am I!

Their opinion was that this was a tremendous waste because NOONE sees the chaplain; if anyone has a problem they see (in order) their teacher, the head, the counsellor. Their objections were purely financial, not atheist. I asked why kids would not seek out the counsellor. They said because she is not qualified, with serious overtones of duh, idiot questioner.

I pointed out that if they followed through with their objection we could
not attend the chaplaincy quiz night fundraiser. That we would repudiate the calling of the lovely chaplain and mock her purpose in the school community. They said that's ok just give us candy.

[tjarm69]

Originally Posted by Ces

I pointed out that if they followed through with their objection we could
not attend the chaplaincy quiz night fundraiser. That we would repudiate the calling of the lovely chaplain and mock her purpose in the school community. They said that's ok just give us candy.

That made me...!!