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Old 1st June 2016, 02:36 PM
TEDBUNDY TEDBUNDY is offline
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Default AFAs risky promotion of a "I have [No Religion]" in the upcoming Australian Election

I’ve a problem with the idea of putting “No Religion” in the appropriate spot in the upcoming Australian census.


While the argument given by “The Atheist Foundation of Australia” is so to allow the government to better plan for its citizens, I don’t believe this to be the case for those (possibly, the silent majority) whose only contact with any established church is through weddings and funerals, … for they do share a common history based on (and let me call it) the “Christian Ethics” that floated in with the 1st Fleet.


This country and its people have gone to War in support of these ethics and ideals of family, friends and a ‘fairness’ based rule-of law.
Marking oneself as Christian in the census would at a minimum identify to the government the desire to continue a moderate transformation with these ethics in the forefront.


If the message from the census to the government is that most people don’t give a crap about formal religion, then those with strong alternate religious … and dare I say “tribal” approaches to justice … may then alter the social landscape contrary to the desire of the majority.
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Old 1st June 2016, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: AFAs risky promotion of a "I have [No Religion]" in the upcoming Australian Elect

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TEDBUNDY said View Post
I’ve a problem with the idea of putting “No Religion” in the appropriate spot in the upcoming Australian census.
Fine, then don't.

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TEDBUNDY said View Post
While the argument given by “The Atheist Foundation of Australia” is so to allow the government to better plan for its citizens, I don’t believe this to be the case for those (possibly, the silent majority) whose only contact with any established church is through weddings and funerals, … for they do share a common history based on (and let me call it) the “Christian Ethics” that floated in with the 1st Fleet.
If they have no religion, surely they should respond as such? No?

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TEDBUNDY said View Post
If the message from the census to the government is that most people don’t give a crap about formal religion, then those with strong alternate religious … and dare I say “tribal” approaches to justice … may then alter the social landscape contrary to the desire of the majority.
Is this the old "atheists have no morals" cliché?
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Last edited by workmx; 1st June 2016 at 02:51 PM.
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  #3  
Old 1st June 2016, 03:05 PM
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Default Re: AFAs risky promotion of a "I have [No Religion]" in the upcoming Australian Elect

Australia's first church was burnt down, by it's congregation.

Was that the "Christian Ethics" and dewy-eyed nostalgia for beneficient traditions you were invoking?

Trying to think of a cultural value that was established by Christians. Slavery? Primacy of man and church over woman? Racial vilification?

Nope, even those vilenesses predate Abraham.

Is there actually anything in the op that can be supported as other than confected outrage and appeal to how much betterer everything was back in them good old days?
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Old 1st June 2016, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: AFAs risky promotion of a "I have [No Religion]" in the upcoming Australian Elect

Replied to wrong thread, oops!
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Old 1st June 2016, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: AFAs risky promotion of a "I have [No Religion]" in the upcoming Australian Elect

You can almost always predict, when seeing a username in allcaps, that the ensuing post is going to be a load of shite.

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TEDBUNDY said View Post
I’ve a problem with the idea of putting “No Religion” in the appropriate spot in the upcoming Australian census.
Well, bully for you.

Quote:
While the argument given by “The Atheist Foundation of Australia” is so to allow the government to better plan for its citizens, I don’t believe this to be the case for those (possibly, the silent majority) whose only contact with any established church is through weddings and funerals, … for they do share a common history based on (and let me call it) the “Christian Ethics” that floated in with the 1st Fleet.
Bullshit.

"Christian Ethics" is a fucking laughable phrase, for one thing. At the heart of Christianity is racism, sexism, revenge fantasy, and necromancy. Actual ethics come about despite Christianity, not because of it.

I mean, sure, you can argue that Australian society as a whole - and white Australian society in particular - has a shared history of racism, sexism, and all that. And sure, those came along with the First Fleet, which was the beginning of an invasion that almost entirely destroyed the most ancient cultures on the fucking planet. Sure, those Christian fucking Ethics.

Except society is changing. Slowly, but it's changing. Women and brown people are people now, and have been seen as such for quite some time. People are, in general, less bigoted, less sexist, generally less all-round fucknoodles. And less in need of infantile death-magic notions to justify their viewpoints.

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This country and its people have gone to War in support of these ethics and ideals of family, friends and a ‘fairness’ based rule-of law.
Nope. Never once has this country been threatened. Not one single time has Australia's sovereignty and society faced anything approaching a credible, realistic military threat. Every conflict Australia has been involved in has been at the request of allies, primarily Britain and the USA.

Australia's supposedly egalitarian society isn't even all that egalitarian. The rich elites still rule, still have almost all the power, and can still treat pretty much anyone they want any way they want.

Whatever 'fairness' is embodied in our society and legal system has been hard fucking won, for sure, but it wasn't in military conflict. It has been the result of a couple of centuries of of the war of ideas.

Quote:
Marking oneself as Christian in the census would at a minimum identify to the government the desire to continue a moderate transformation with these ethics in the forefront.
But we don't fucking want to indicate that or anything of the sort to the government. We want to indicate that we have no need of absurd bronze age mythologies rooted in patriarchal tribalism and squalid ignorance.

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If the message from the census to the government is that most people don’t give a crap about formal religion, then those with strong alternate religious … and dare I say “tribal” approaches to justice … may then alter the social landscape contrary to the desire of the majority.
Nope. Because the fucking census is merely data, it is one small part of the endless conversation. Thinly-veiled racism and absurd scaremongering about extremism is just that: absurd.

As the proportion of the population that clearly doesn't feel the need for religion increases, the power of religion to influence society wanes. The vast majority of those who oppose progress in terms of women's rights, indigenous rights, LGBTQI rights, children's rights, justice reform - the vast majority of opponents of these things are fucking religious, and they use religion as the basis for their arguments.

And they are dwindling.

It's happening slowly, but it's fucking happening, and none of this ignorant guff you've spouted here is going to change that.
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Old 1st June 2016, 03:41 PM
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Default Re: AFAs risky promotion of a "I have [No Religion]" in the upcoming Australian Elect

GM - Occham says I win!
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Last edited by workmx; 1st June 2016 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 1st June 2016, 04:12 PM
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Default Re: AFAs risky promotion of a "I have [No Religion]" in the upcoming Australian Elect

Oh Ted, did you come here just to say this? And look what happened, you've been shot down so comprehensively, it looks to me like there is a strong net gain for the AFA campaign here in the thread you have started. Unless you can come back with some pretty muscular arguments against those above.
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Old 1st June 2016, 04:41 PM
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Default Re: AFAs risky promotion of a "I have [No Religion]" in the upcoming Australian Elect

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TEDBUNDY said View Post
... “Christian Ethics” that floated in with the 1st Fleet.
Then it is a fucking good thing we got rid of those "christian ethics" for a better set.

I suggest that anyone who posits "christian ethics" as the basis of our society has little knowledge of either ethics or history. I am happy to debate that one if you wish.
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Old 1st June 2016, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: AFAs risky promotion of a "I have [No Religion]" in the upcoming Australian Elect

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TEDBUNDY said View Post
This country and its people have gone to War in support of these ethics and ideals of family, friends and a ‘fairness’ based rule-of law.
As Goldenmane has pointed out your interpretation of our military history is way off the mark. Not once has Australia or any country mind you entered a conflict to defend the 'ideals' of family, friends and fairness based rule of law. We went to war because our imperial master demanded it or our strongest ally wanted it.

Let me be clear, these kind of faux-historical statements may gain traction elsewhere but here we value facts. So if you are going to claim Australia was involved in a conflict for the things you have mentioned please provide evidence.

As for the rest of your OP you have failed to provide one logical reason why anyone who does not currently view themselves as religious should not mark down 'No Religion' on the next census.
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Old 1st June 2016, 05:06 PM
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wearestardust wearestardust is offline
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Default Re: AFAs risky promotion of a "I have [No Religion]" in the upcoming Australian Elect

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TEDBUNDY said View Post
...then those with strong alternate religious … and dare I say “tribal” approaches to justice … may then alter the social landscape contrary to the desire of the majority.
I presume this is code for muslims.

Anyway ...

Together with Loki and Goldenmane, I'm perplexed about what 'Christian' values and morals there are, that are not available to people without religion, that we cannot afford to lose?
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