The HALAL and KOSHER thread: religious food fads.

[Homosapien]

Originally Posted by wearestardust

I think we are disagreeing about more fundamental things than chocolate. Let's see if we can tease them out.

My view is that yes, all these points are true, but trivial. One could replace "halal" with "purple wrapper" (mutatis mutandis) and have equally true but trivial statements, it seems to me.

But you disagree. Why?




Actually that would cost significantly more still.

You obviously don't understand much about, say example, company takeovers.
Slowly you subliminaly indoctrinate those around you to your viewpoint, by slowly introducing and taking control with your principles over theirs.

This company takeover method does not occur when BOTH views are acknowledged, respected, and catered for.

This is not the case here. IT IS ABOUT RESPECT OF EACH OTHERS 'BELIEFS' AND 'PRINCIPLES'. My (and I assume I speak for others here as well) beliefs and principles have not been respected. Otherwise there would be BOTH ranges of chocolate.

Maybe you do not possess any principles?

It all starts with taking over certain foods, indoctrinating all those around you to adhere to your methods and beliefs (whilst you also pay for that privilage of being indoctrinated). Then it moves to ALL foods, then must I be made to pray five times a day, and my wife must then wear a burka? Where does it stop my friend?

I respect their beliefs and agree that Halal equivalents should be made available for Muslims. But not at the expense to my values and beliefs. We can live in co-existance. BOTH can be catered for. You don't need to force all those others around you to your views. That my friend IS a takeover.

If my views and principles (not yours my friend, as you do not appear to have any) are not acknowledged respected, then I can guarantee you that my respect for others beliefs and values will diminish. Why must I respect others if I am not respected in return?? This my friend is how wars begin.

If we can respect each other, then we can live together in peace. (And I'm not talking about trivial purple wrappers here. I'm tallking about grown ups values and principles here.)

[wearestardust]

Originally Posted by Homosapien

You obviously don't understand much about ...
Maybe you do not possess any principles ...
If my views and principles (not yours my friend, as you do not appear to have any)...

I think those comments were pretty uncalled for. I was hoping we might tease out our clearly differing views on the meaning of secularism and the degree to which a non-theist has the right to be free of religion in a pluralist society. But I'm not confident on those comments that I'd be getting a reasoned discussion.

[wearestardust]

Originally Posted by Crocodile

It would surely cost more than the company. So why not just avoid the HALAL bit?

Well, again, why? You seem to be asserting that your right to eat non-Halal Cadbsury chocolate trumps the Muslim's rights to eat it:

If Muslims can avoid eating non-HALAL food then they can sure as hell avoid eating chocolate.

but why?

[DavidB]

The fact of the matter is that we (and I mean the collective Australian 'we') should not be pandering to religious groups of any colour. Do do this should be seen as the short end of the wedge. What's next? The abolition of non-halal butchers? The abolition of non-halal foods from all of our restaurants? What about school tuck shops?

I know I am being a bit reactionary but we have to alert to this sort of thing. I'm not against people being able to choose products that are halal, it is just that the non-religious have no choice in the matter at all: we can't actually buy cadbury chocolate that is NOT halal.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Originally Posted by wearestardust

Well, again, why? You seem to be asserting that your right to eat non-Halal Cadbsury chocolate trumps the Muslim's rights to eat it:

Well if we look at things like this: by producing both HALAL and non-HALAL versions of the same product, you effectively have to alter the manufacturing system a bit.

The process is fundamentally the same but as far as output is concerned, will have to be altered in a way which produces both HALAL and non-HALAL versions. Mostly this will affect packaging.

Now it has been a long time since I have seen Halal/Haram type stuff, so I'm not 100% aware of what is classified as Halal and what is not. IIRC milk is always Halal if it is from a cow, but I'm not sure.

Assuming for a moment that what I said for milk just above is true, the only thing that will need is more packaging or even simply a stamping facility. It may cost more for employees to stamp products as Halal or even adding an automated stamping facility which would consume power/fuel/etc to operate as well and require maintenance.

Even having different sets of packaging may cost more too. I suppose it depends on who they are hiring to print the packages, or whether or not they are printing them out themselves.

That being said this is why I now come to the conclusion that it might be more expensive to have both halal and non-halal versions.

Originally Posted by wearestardust

but why?

Why not? After all how many Muslims do you know actually drink beer or eat pork/ham/bacon or eat the meat from a nonblessed cow etcetera? If they can avoid all that I reckon they should theoretically be able to avoid chocolate. What you seem to be suggesting (correct me if I am wrong) is that they cater for the Muslims as well. So in that case they should theoretically not manufacture the chocolate/sell the chocolate on Ramadan too!

Originally Posted by DavidB

The fact of the matter is that we (and I mean the collective Australian 'we') should not be pandering to religious groups of any colour. Do do this should be seen as the short end of the wedge. What's next? The abolition of non-halal butchers? The abolition of non-halal foods from all of our restaurants? What about school tuck shops?

I know I am being a bit reactionary but we have to alert to this sort of thing. I'm not against people being able to choose products that are halal, it is just that the non-religious have no choice in the matter at all: we can't actually buy cadbury chocolate that is NOT halal.

I know what you mean. This HALAL business is extended too, and is not particularly restricted to chocolate.

Personally I'm not too bothered if I eat Halal products but it is worrying that they are attempting to force this on non-Muslims just so that they can cater for the followers of such a "peaceful" religion.

[Homosapien]

Originally Posted by wearestardust

I think those comments were pretty uncalled for. I was hoping we might tease out our clearly differing views on the meaning of secularism and the degree to which a non-theist has the right to be free of religion in a pluralist society. But I'm not confident on those comments that I'd be getting a reasoned discussion.

I don't mind having a mature adult conversation.

But it is a little hard when the other person downgrades other peoples values and principles to that of "trivia and purple wrappers." Would you do the same thing in a forum discussing pedophilia or rape as well? Maybe when you stop downgrading other peoples values and principles to that of utter rubbish, we may then be able to continue discussing things on an adult level.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Originally Posted by atheist_angel

I'm just sick of companies catering to crybaby religions because of the social expectations that it creates to accommodate and not offend people with imaginary friends.

I agree with that. And he can correct me if I am wrong but that is what Homosapien was trying to get at. That is what I am trying to say as well. It's not the chocolate it is a matter of freedom of choice that is the main issue. The chocolate is the example.

[wearestardust]

Originally Posted by Homosapien

I don't mind having a mature adult conversation.

But it is a little hard when the other person downgrades other peoples values and principles to that of "trivia and purple wrappers." Would you do the same thing in a forum discussing pedophilia or rape as well? Maybe when you stop downgrading other peoples values and principles to that of utter rubbish, we may then be able to continue discussing things on an adult level.

Then I apologise for making you feel like I was trivialising your viewpoint. I still think it would have been preferable, given the inherent nature of internet discussions, to check what I meant before going off with an unwarranted and puerile response. But I'll put that aside. Let me put it like this: I think that the chocolate being halal is an irrelevancy, like the colour of the wrapper. You think it is highly relevant. Why? In particular, do you have a better reason than "it's religion and I ought not have to see religious stuff anywhere at any time". That would strike me as phariseeism of the first order.

Then, turning to the freedom of choice issue - and this goes to the last point made by Croc as well: every product is produced in a finite number of ways. Those ways in which products are produced suit some people and not others. Usually, that's life. You are asserting, however, that there is some moral basis for you getting what you want and others not - that your rights in terms of your preferences for Cadbury chocolate, or for that matter a range of potentially affected products, trump the similar rights of others to be able to have the products that way. Why?

[wearestardust]

and - in a separate post because it is not directed at anyone in particular - I am really disturbed by the undertone that it's all part of a concerted Mulsim conspiracy.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Originally Posted by wearestardust

Then, turning to the freedom of choice issue - and this goes to the last point made by Croc as well: every product is produced in a finite number of ways. Those ways in which products are produced suit some people and not others. Usually, that's life. You are asserting, however, that there is some moral basis for you getting what you want and others not - that your rights in terms of your preferences for Cadbury chocolate, or for that matter a range of potentially affected products, trump the similar rights of others to be able to have the products that way. Why?

Why should we have to deal with products that have a religious involvement though? Why the Muslims are involved? Why do western products have to conform to Islamic norms? That's an example of what I am talking about and the Cadbury chocolate is a fine example of this.

Basically we seem to be in a society where religion can take over simply by having crybaby followers who have nothing better to do than get offended by silly things such as not saying "Bismillahirrahmahnirraheem!" before eating a meal or before slaughtering animals (halal process) etcetera. Or even getting ticked off and complaining just because the food they want to eat (they don't have to eat it!) is not Halal and was never Halal in the first place.

Why should they get what they want? And why cater to the Muslims only? Why not to everyone you can? Not everyone are Muslims you know. Why let Islam and other religions influence our resources and/or luxuries?