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Getting started New to atheism or still in the process of removing those final theistic indoctrinations?

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  #51  
Old 30th August 2014, 09:36 AM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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QUOTE=the_gelf;488579.
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What is this term "infinite regress" People say things without understanding their meaning all the time.

As stated in previous posts, the "Law" that is thermodynamics is valid only for a set of rules, and yes, those conditions are not covered by "before" the big bang. Thermodynamics cannot happen without time. And there was no time before the big bang. Just like there is no north of the north pole. So yes, you understand the analogy. The reasoning is that there is a paradox created (and to insert a christian god is called special pleading) by the claims of*cough* "evolutionists". The fact is, there is no paradox - the person who thinks there is a contradiction does not understand.


Here's a simple counter

1+1=2
2+2=4
4+4=13
13+13=31
31+31=112

Asking the elder to explain how the above is true, while maintaining that "the laws of mathematics hold true" when neither of you studied computational mathematics is equivalent to argue for and against the thermodynamics laws - neither of you understand the reference frame (until I tell you directly - but you are taking my word on faith(sic)).

I would be questioning the elder's faith in the assertion - how does he know that whoever it is who claims the 2nd law is violated is true? How does he know they didn't intend to deceive from the get-go? Refer to the vaccine-autism study + fiasco, where claims were falsified to suit an agenda, and how much hurt it caused.

Similarly, where is the assertion that giving whole blood is against gods will? (sorry to bring this up again, it's my bugbear) "Thou shalt only donate the T-cells" - where the fuck does the bible mention how to treat cancer patients undergoing chemotherapy??

The reason I mention this is that you need to tie these very abstract ideas into something they understand, something tangible - by making it tangible, it gains importance.
Yes I remember discussing the blood issue with a lovely couple where the husband is an elder. The wife knew that the organisation allowed for blood fractions on a per conscience decision basis (let the kid die, he's going to be resurrected anyway), but the hubby didn't know about this rule. He said if it was allowed that would undermine the whole organisation and teaching on which he has based his life (I changeth not etcetera). The wife assured him that this was indeed the case. It was tactfully decided to move the conversation on to less disturbing issues (they are extended family and it was after a funeral).
Edit: I should add that this per conscience rule allows only for blood fractions not whole blood, and that there is a certain stigma of failure if one does not opt for the path of martyredom but in the face of death weakens and takes blood, even if only by fractions.

PPS: A great practical idea for witnesses considering their options is to actually donate blood. I have not read any JW literature about not donating blood, and it's a great practical step in a newly independent life.

In any case it's very practical since the organisation in the face of public outcry now allows (with disdain) for the taking of blood fractions, albeit reluctantly.
How could those blood fractions be obtained unless somebody somewhere donated blood. Hence it is a strikingly independent move and yet presumably completely in accordance with JW present policies, to donate blood.

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Last edited by wadaye; 30th August 2014 at 09:56 AM.
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  #52  
Old 1st September 2014, 04:55 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: ex JW points to clarify

Today I was "witnessed to" by a young guy called Chris from the Colyton congregation.

He said he's been studying the bible for himself for 28 years old.

I then asked him how old he is and you'll never guess what he said. ..,.

yep, he's 28 years old.

I discussed with him the blood issue, and he agreed that blood fractions are discouraged even in medical emergencies.

I asked if he or any other witnesses would consider donating blood, considering that they are allowed to take blood fractions.

He replied with words to the effect that witnesses live in the world but are not of it.

I said that's just sponging off other people.

In regards to education, he considered that witnesses are among the most highly educated people, actually the most highly educated.

Not in an ordinary worldly sense of course, he explained, but in how to serve the sovereign of the Universe.


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  #53  
Old 2nd September 2014, 06:39 PM
Dannoob Dannoob is offline
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Default Re: ex JW points to clarify

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wadaye said View Post
Today I was "witnessed to" by a young guy called Chris from the Colyton congregation.

He said he's been studying the bible for himself for 28 years old.

I then asked him how old he is and you'll never guess what he said. ..,.

yep, he's 28 years old.

I discussed with him the blood issue, and he agreed that blood fractions are discouraged even in medical emergencies.

I asked if he or any other witnesses would consider donating blood, considering that they are allowed to take blood fractions.

He replied with words to the effect that witnesses live in the world but are not of it.

I said that's just sponging off other people.

In regards to education, he considered that witnesses are among the most highly educated people, actually the most highly educated.

Not in an ordinary worldly sense of course, he explained, but in how to serve the sovereign of the Universe.


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When I hear those answers he gave you it makes me cringe. That used to be me. Full of confidence and no idea. Just out of curiosity, do you like having jw's call around or do they just pissed you off for wasting your time?
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  #54  
Old 2nd September 2014, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: ex JW points to clarify

When I really hadn't been an atheist for very long, after my lost years as a Christian, the visits by the JW's would really bring me down. Especially with the grown sons in tow, white shirt and tie. I would be negative for two days! I couldn't believe the funny old elder's brown tooled leather shoes, like the 1950's!

Two energetic men came around last month, up the long driveway, working the neighbourhood, on the warpath. Still, sunny day, Saturday. I was sitting looking out the open window onto the garden, practising swing soloing on the old Maton Fyrbyrd. They snidely chuckled as they went past me. I heard them (I was playing unplugged, studying Ab).

The beloved courteously saw them off. She was thinking, 'Oh no, I hope he stays put!' She was tackling a psych assignment.

I would have been up for it. I am much more detached now, which is really essential.

I think 'infinite regress' is the same as the reductio ad absurdum, or argumentum ad absurdum. Who created God?
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Last edited by Strato; 2nd September 2014 at 09:59 PM.
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  #55  
Old 2nd September 2014, 11:25 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: ex JW points to clarify

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Dannoob said View Post
When I hear those answers he gave you it makes me cringe. That used to be me. Full of confidence and no idea. Just out of curiosity, do you like having jw's call around or do they just pissed you off for wasting your time?
i don't mind them at all. There was a time in my life when I tried to keep an open mind about it and for the sake of my late wife went along with her to the meetings.

Sometimes they'd come up with something sensible to say, like the time when bombs were being rained on Afghanistan and the elder reminded everyone in the hall that morning that people were being killed.

Still the bombs had been raining on Afghanistan for thirty years even then and forty years now and it probably got very few mentions in very few meetings.

Most witnesses I just feel sorry for them really bending their minds around the rigid pole of dogma from pissed white guys in new york. I made it my task some years ago to read through the sordid past editions of the watchtower, all the way back to the 1880s. You can't get them from the witnesses, they'd do their best to make sure they're all safely burned and just some few choice quotes retained. But they are available through deep searching on the internet.
I reminded Chris about the 1952 (or so) article in which the Watchtower explained that women had smaller brains than men (which incidentally explains their lesser positions in the congregation).
I forgot to mention the choice bits about God residing in the star system Pleiades. Damn I thought, one that got away!

Actually even though he was so confident about his answers, they came as if from a downloaded watchtower, while he looked in pain, mentally, but apparently not knowing the cause of that pain.

I've seen that type of look before in some of the the vipassana types and also in witnesses. Truth be known I've felt it myself.



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  #56  
Old 2nd September 2014, 11:35 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: ex JW points to clarify

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Strato said View Post
When I really hadn't been an atheist for very long, after my lost years as a Christian, the visits by the JW's would really bring me down. Especially with the grown sons in tow, white shirt and tie. I would be negative for two days! I couldn't believe the funny old elder's brown tooled leather shoes, like the 1950's!

Two energetic men came around last month, up the long driveway, working the neighbourhood, on the warpath. Still, sunny day, Saturday. I was sitting looking out the open window onto the garden, practising swing soloing on the old Maton Fyrbyrd. They snidely chuckled as they went past me. I heard them (I was playing unplugged, studying Ab).

The beloved courteously saw them off. She was thinking, 'Oh no, I hope he stays put!' She was tackling a psych assignment.

I would have been up for it. I am much more detached now, which is really essential.

I think 'infinite regress' is the same as the reductio ad absurdum, or argumentum ad absurdum. Who created God?
yes there's another type of witness, just a few i think, smug, self satisfied, maybe also openly of the elect and showing it. possibly would be a difficult person to be married to!


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