A long journey continues...

[Serpion5]

Originally Posted by Iseeyouthere

Then thats not spiritual... Thats called using your brain.

You are needlessly making it seem like a it is a special skill or something.

Arguable. I agree it isn't special, but it's a bit more than just thought.

Sprituality:

1: Concern for that which is unseen and intangible, as opposed to physical or mundane.
2: Appreciation for religious values.

[Xeno]

What are religious values, or were they not part of your interest?

[DanDare]

Hi Serpion5 and welcome.

I think the term you may be looking for is more like numinous than spiritual. Although dictionaries define numinous in supernatural or spiritual terms I have seen it used more often to describe the sense of awe and wonder we feel when beholding the reality before us.

You might find this interesting.

[Serpion5]

Originally Posted by Xeno

What are religious values, or were they not part of your interest?

Depends on the religion. I am well aware that the Bible has been used to justify terrible things, but on the whole it was intended that Mankind would live in a functional society with set laws and values.

I am of the opinion that religion is generally not needed for society to continue functioning in this day and age. I would be glad to see it gone, but I also have found that many people still "need" faith in order to live their lives. However foolish it may seem, it's their way and I'm fine with that. I know a certain atheist who vehemently opposes religion and argues we should be proactive in abolishing it. Personally, I think he's a nut. Given how far we've come, I think conventional religion is doomed to die within a few centuries.

The values I speak of are the ones such as forbiding murder and rape which originally appeared in religious texts. One may argue otherwise, but i think the mindset of most people nowadays is shaped by society which was in turn shaped by religion in earlier times. The religion is no longer required, but it is without doubt that it has had a profound effect on how any society has formed.

Originally Posted by DanDare

Hi Serpion5 and welcome.

I think the term you may be looking for is more like numinous than spiritual. Although dictionaries define numinous in supernatural or spiritual terms I have seen it used more often to describe the sense of awe and wonder we feel when beholding the reality before us.

You might find this interesting.

I see little awe and wonder in reality. What's known is boring. What's unknown is interesting. What's unknowable is fun to speculate on.

[Xeno]

Originally Posted by Serpion5

Depends on the religion. I am well aware that the Bible has been used to justify terrible things, but on the whole it was intended that Mankind would live in a functional society with set laws and values.

The bible? What of those societies without the Jewish religion of the time, societies which lived in functional societies with set laws and values?

How was it that those other societies were invariably more advanced both socially and technically than tribal societies such as the Jewish one of the bible?

Would you say the spirituality of speculation on the unknowable, rather than investigation of the unknown, was useful and if so in what demonstrable respect?

The values I speak of are the ones such as forbiding murder and rape which originally appeared in religious texts.

Really? My recollection is that religious texts condoned murder and rape, provided it was done by the more powerful characters in the stories.

Can you demonstrate that most people and most societies saw no disadvantage for themselves or society in murder and rape, without statements against it first appearing in religious texts? Who wrote the many religious texts, independently invented the many religions which all mysteriously came to similar social conclusions for similar lifestyles?

Incidentally, which commandment in the bible forbids rape? I recall there are rules about marrying the victim with an appropriate dowry to her father, but anything else? It may be there, but I am curious to know where.

One may argue otherwise, but i think the mindset of most people nowadays is shaped by society which was in turn shaped by religion in earlier times. The religion is no longer required, but it is without doubt that it has had a profound effect on how any society has formed.

Actually I think you will find that society has had a profound effect on civilising religion, despite the best efforts of the religiously inclined (believers from spirit rather than evidence) to destroy society.

[DanDare]

Originally Posted by Serpion5

I see little awe and wonder in reality.

That's very sad. I experience awe and wonder every day from reality. I'm fascinated by the shape and intricacy of physical things. I love sensations like taste, colour vision, sound.

This morning I sat in the garden and watched leaves move to the wind and rebound due to the elasticity of the limbs they were attached to. I noticed relationships in the geometry. My wind chimes dinged and birds flew past singing. I enjoyed the raw experience and wondered at the frequencies of bird sound and what the birds themselves experienced as they uttered them.The air was cool but where the sun hit the paving near my feet a warm, toasty smelling column of air rose up.

And that was just that moment. Life is full of that stuff and I find it great.

[Serpion5]

Originally Posted by Xeno

The bible? What of those societies without the Jewish religion of the time, societies which lived in functional societies with set laws and values?

Those were generally attibuted to their own belief systems. Like the "pagan" gods of the surrounding regions and the ancestor worship of the Eastern cultures. I used the bible as a general example, not a universal explanation.

How was it that those other societies were invariably more advanced both socially and technically than tribal societies such as the Jewish one of the bible?

We are shaped by what we believe no? Many of those faiths did not vehemently oppose development unlike Judaeism which abhorred change and nonconformity.

Would you say the spirituality of speculation on the unknowable, rather than investigation of the unknown, was useful and if so in what demonstrable respect?

Mental exercise, creative thought? Fiction, Literature, Art, the precursors to the Entertainment many of us enjoy today? Yes I think it served a purpose.

Really? My recollection is that religious texts condoned murder and rape, provided it was done by the more powerful characters in the stories.

So while you accuse christians of cherry picking the best bits, you at the same time will ignore the passages instructing folks to Love thy neighbour and not covet his wife or his ass or his wife's ass?

Can you demonstrate that most people and most societies saw no disadvantage for themselves or society in murder and rape, without statements against it first appearing in religious texts? Who wrote the many religious texts, independently invented the many religions which all mysteriously came to similar social conclusions for similar lifestyles?

I cannot claim proof that this is widespread, but I know several central African countries have acted in such ways under leaders and regimes with no moral compass. I am also aware that Christian Missionaries have lost their lives attempting to provide aid to the victims of these crimes.

Incidentally, which commandment in the bible forbids rape? I recall there are rules about marrying the victim with an appropriate dowry to her father, but anything else? It may be there, but I am curious to know where.

You've got me there. I can't name the passage, but I assume the pope knows what he's talking about lol. If it turns out I'm wrong I'll back you up on this.

Actually I think you will find that society has had a profound effect on civilising religion, despite the best efforts of the religiously inclined (believers from spirit rather than evidence) to destroy society.

Absolutely, modern society has enhanced these laws to the point where protection from such crimes and definition of the crimes themselves is vastly increased. However, the laws have their basis in Religion, do they not? I view it as a starting point from which modern society was able to develop.

Never would I condone going back to the fundamentals. Never. But I am not so satanic as to sing loudly and ignore the good that this organization has accomplished simply because they've also done bad things. Especially given the time frame and the widespread nature of the faith, holding a grudge against the entire organization and everyone who's a part of it is, imo, a pretty one dimensional approach.

Originally Posted by DanDare

That's very sad. I experience awe and wonder every day from reality. I'm fascinated by the shape and intricacy of physical things. I love sensations like taste, colour vision, sound.

This morning I sat in the garden and watched leaves move to the wind and rebound due to the elasticity of the limbs they were attached to. I noticed relationships in the geometry. My wind chimes dinged and birds flew past singing. I enjoyed the raw experience and wondered at the frequencies of bird sound and what the birds themselves experienced as they uttered them.The air was cool but where the sun hit the paving near my feet a warm, toasty smelling column of air rose up.

And that was just that moment. Life is full of that stuff and I find it great.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy crap like that too and I love physical sensation as any red blooded male would. But it doesn't mean as much to me on an intellectual or philosophical level.

[Mjt]

Could you please not use the word retarded? It's a bit rude and insensitive.
Aside from that, as you were

[wolty]

Originally Posted by Mjt

Could you please not use the word retarded? It's a bit rude and insensitive.
Aside from that, as you were

Noted Mjt.

[Xeno]

Hi Serpion, it appears to me that you are missing the point in a fairly comprehensive way. I shall explain, unfortunately not reducing the fisk-count.

I have deleted your responses to DD. I think it would ease things for all parties if you maintained a practice of post per person.

Originally Posted by Serpion5

Those were generally attibuted to their own belief systems. Like the "pagan" gods of the surrounding regions and the ancestor worship of the Eastern cultures. I used the bible as a general example, not a universal explanation.

From this you agree with my point that, regardless of the local religion, people at a corresponding stage of social development had similar laws. So, what has religion to do with it if it is evidently not a discriminator on morality, only on whom you should regard as "other", to treat as infidels, to kill?

We are shaped by what we believe no? Many of those faiths did not vehemently oppose development unlike Judaeism which abhorred change and nonconformity.

Indeed, polytheism appears more successful than monotheism in terms of knowledge advancement, and non-theism highly successful especially to the extent spiritual "answers" are ignored in favour of evidentially based models. Did you have any other point?

Mental exercise, creative thought? Fiction, Literature, Art, the precursors to the Entertainment many of us enjoy today? Yes I think it served a purpose.

A capacity for mental exercise and creative thought is completely independent from contemplation of the unknowable (which term you might like to define at some point). Most of fiction considers variations on what is known or that which might be known, creative speculation. Entertainment without insight is not knowledge but casual pleasure, like drugs. That is nice but I take it you have agreed that it does not represent an advance in knowledge.


I am placing your next reply in full context:

Originally Posted by Serpion5

The values I speak of are the ones such as forbiding murder and rape which originally appeared in religious texts.

To walk through that,

• you think words in religious texts opposing murder and rape are good things;
• you have agreed, above, that the words in religious texts appear from people in every society, i.e. from people as contributions to their "religion" rather than from religion;
• I point out that murder and rape are condoned in the bible;
• you change the subject to some other stuff in the bible, stuff which once again is not unique to the bible.

Yet you accuse me of cherry-picking??

I cannot claim proof that this is widespread, but I know several central African countries have acted in such ways under leaders and regimes with no moral compass. I am also aware that Christian Missionaries have lost their lives attempting to provide aid to the victims of these crimes.

You neglected to refer to non-christians who have lost their lives attempting to provide aid to victims of such crimes. What was that about cherry-picking?

As for some people who have behaved without a moral compass, you had in mind the Albigensian crusade in the 13th C, or was it some other religious atrocity, such as rivers of blood in the Crusades or massacres and rape in the old testament, or people who murder doctors today? Where is your moral compass?

You've got me there. I can't name the passage, but I assume the pope knows what he's talking about lol. If it turns out I'm wrong I'll back you up on this.

:thumbsdown: You made the claim about rape. It is your problem to find the citation. Who gives a fuck what a random man in a hat says, or will you say you rely on the pronouncements of all popes throughout history?

Absolutely, modern society has enhanced these laws to the point where protection from such crimes and definition of the crimes themselves is vastly increased. However, the laws have their basis in Religion, do they not?

Answer: no. You should get this by now. Religion is an expression of people in a time, and improved by people over time contrary to conservative wishes of adherents to the religion they formed.

Never would I condone going back to the fundamentals. Never. But I am not so satanic as to sing loudly and ignore the good that this organization has accomplished simply because they've also done bad things.

If something does both good and bad things then we can and should weigh up the costs and benefits, just as we do with astrology, or the benefits and disadvantages of racism, or whether the man who murdered his family ever previously bought presents for his children. Counting up, religion loses.

Especially given the time frame and the widespread nature of the faith, holding a grudge against the entire organization and everyone who's a part of it is, imo, a pretty xxxxxxxx approach.

What does "xxxxxxxx" mean please? Fucksocks cuntwaffle?