Please present a compelling explanation why naturalism is true

[jireh]

Originally Posted by davo
Why do morals have to be objectively true? Why can't they be reasoned positions based on ethics?

the ethics of the nazis was to kill jews. So ?? everything alright ? if not, why ? and based on what can you say, they were wrong ?

Methinks you just don't understand what is right and wrong without being told.

everybody knows it. we all have a moral conscience. where does it come from ?

About 590,000,000 years of being in the kingdom Animalia that leads us to the common position people hold at the moment, that is based on ethics, a reasoned and logical position over social cohesion and our empathy.

there is no such thing as common position..... does the killing of jews, ordered by the germans, make part of that common position ?

Some people will be good or evil with or without religion Jireh. You cannot say religion makes someone good. It's demonstrably false.

where did i say that ? neither is that my argument.

And how are they binding? There are plenty of christian murderers, I don't see their morals preventing them from shooting doctors dead, or blowing up buildings.

based on our faith, these will be judged and condemend based on what they did.

Morals are not created, they are not a thing, they are a position someone holds based on many factors.

correct. what factors ? how comes, that people in the jungle , that had never contact with the white man, know in the exact same manner, as we do, that kill someone else is a bad thing to do ? why do we have all a common sense on what is good, what is bad ?

You for instance didn't hesitate in saying you would kill if your god told you too. Would that be an evil act? is it good because your god commands it? Is that the only reason something is good or evil?

i would do it, because there is no higher instance than God, and if he commands us to do something, then it is right to do it, whatever it is. Since God is by definition a morally perfect being, all his commands are perfect as well. Even if we do not understand them sometimes.

If so, you cannot say what is good or evil, the only way for you to tell if an action by another is good or evil, is to directly consult god.

thats correct. all things we do, are measured by the moral standard that is god given.

You cannot condemn the people that flew into the world trade center doing what they were totally convinced of ... doing what god told them too.

they were deluded, because the god they believe in, does not exist.

If the bible is so clear, do you accept the Westbro Baptist church position? What about the LRA position? What about the Ku Klux Klan? Anders Behring Breivik? want me to continue?

i do not accept the position held by people. i accept the moral standard given by god. Based on that, every action is measured.

[Logic please]

Hmmm...

[Logic please]

Ooohhh look...



Now, does this remind us of anyone....?

[davo]

Originally Posted by jireh

for many centuries, to held slaves was ok. society accepted it. How can you based on atheism say, they were wrong ?? hmmm ??

Are you even reading what people are writing? I have said it over and over again.

Critical thinking, reasoned logical positions based on ethics, empathy and social cohesion.

Why do you think it is impossible to logically come to the conclusion something is good, and something is bad?

Why do you Jireh, have to be told?

correct. the only thing, based on what can you conclude, your morals are more valid and binding than mine ?? as atheist, you cannot. everything is relative, everything is aloud, it depends only on a individuals or collective opinion.

Just because something is relative, does not mean everthing is allowed (see how I spelt that?). I don't want to live in a society where everything is allowed, either does pretty much everyone.

What is so hard to understand?

the nazis had also a lot of time, until they decided, that it was good to kill the jews.

Yes, based on Hitlers beliefs, based on scripture. Here is his notes in his bible.

gods existence cannot be proven, but evidenced.

So you accept there may not be a god?

its not the case, and neither did i say that. the absence of a God, that prescribes morals, does not mean necessarly, that people automatically will start to kill etc. It means, that there is no ground to say, what is objectively good, what is bad. thats remains just a opinion of the individual, and the collective. and what todays people and society held as morally acceptable, can be the oposit with other societys, and there is nobody that can say, they are wrong.

I gave grounds, you just ignore that fact.

Go look up such things as moral realism if you want objective truths. I'm happy to base my moral compass on striving to cause the least suffering possible, as that is the type of society I want to live in, and undoubtedly most other people on the planet.

[loubert]

Bloody hell How many times has this been explained to you and you just keep asking the same damn "questions". Or ignore what people have taken the time to explain.

[davo]

Originally Posted by Jireh

the ethics of the nazis was to kill jews. So ?? everything alright ? if not, why ? and based on what can you say, they were wrong ?

No, that's morals. Morals are positions we choose on an ethical scale. Ethics can be summarised as causing the least harm possible. That is not restricted to humans either, but everything.

We all choose different positions on an ethical scale, together as a society we make laws based on ethical considerations, by critically thinking about morals and ethics. This includes such things as animal abuse, womens rights etc, something not mentioned in your bible at all.

there is no such thing as common position..... does the killing of jews, ordered by the germans, make part of that common position ?

Of course there is, the vast majority of people abhor the actions of Hitler, a christian btw.

Other than fundamentalist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and Christian Identity

where did i say that ? neither is that my argument.

Well what is your argument? If atheists can be good people without a bible to tell them, what exactly is your argument?

based on our faith, these will be judged and condemend based on what they did.

They did it because god told them too. Who are you to judge that? Remember you say morals are right or wrong based on your god. How can you say what they did is wrong? Do you know for sure that god did not talk to them as they claim?

how comes, that people in the jungle , that had never contact with the white man, know in the exact same manner, as we do, that kill someone else is a bad thing to do ? why do we have all a common sense on what is good, what is bad ?

I have already said over and over and over again. People do not want to live in a society where others run around murdering and stealing. We are social animals with empathy.

That's why.

i would do it, because there is no higher instance than God, and if he commands us to do something, then it is right to do it, whatever it is.

Then you are not talking about moral absolutism Jireh, your morality is based merely upon God's whim.

That's called divine command theory.

You don't even understand your own concepts.

they were deluded, because the god they believe in, does not exist.

Prove it.

i do not accept the position held by people. i accept the moral standard given by god. Based on that, every action is measured.

Their positions are based on the commands of god. How can you say they are wrong, if you have no ability to say what is wrong or right, because whatever your god decrees is 'right'?

[Logic please]

davo, may I illustrate a couple of your excellent points?

Originally Posted by davo

Of course there is, the vast majority of people abhor the actions of Hitler, a christian btw.

Originally Posted by davo

They did it because god told them too. Who are you to judge that? Remember you say morals are right or wrong based on your god. How can you say what they did is wrong? Do you know for sure that god did not talk to them as they claim?

Shall we talk about Nazis some more???

[davo]

I good site on Hitler's christianity and the religiosity of the nazi's can be found here

[hackenslash]

Originally Posted by jireh

nice beginning , Hack. You have been schooled that I choose by whom i want to be schooled..... you are certainly not a teacher that has the credentials to school me. And so no atheist has.
so how about you come down a little bit ??

How about you put your own house in order. You've been beaten about the head time and time again with the facts, even to the point where the rest of us a feeling a little punch-drunk.

the dodo is extinct through direct intervention of man.....

The mechanism is irrelevant. What is relevant here is that the dodo, being extinct, constitutes a cast-iron example of macroevolution.

BS. Evidence of macro evolution is lacking in the fossil record.

Ignorant drivel. The fossil record is pretty much exclusively a record of macroevolution, because it is a record of extinction, which is, by definition, macroevolution.

common structures can evidence a common designer as well.

Except, of course, that you have no evidence of design, or indeed a designer, nor in fact any metric by which design can be inferred. This is another of those inconvenient questions you keep consistently ducking, despite the fact that being able to produce such a metric would pretty much guarantee you a Nobel prize.

Dogs always produce dogs, cats always produce cats.

Precisely as evolutionary theory predicts.

speciation is NOT equivalent of macroevolution.

No, it isn't equivalent to macroevolution, it IS fucking macroevolution.

where is the demonstration ?

The demonstration has been given. Shame your Morton's Demon prevents you from understanding it.

[loubert]

Well looks like jireh is not alone in his thought process.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...t-association/



Excerpt from page:

Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is ‘in’, not to mention convenient since, as Dostoevsky said in 19th century Russia, where it was likewise ‘in’, that if there is no God then anything can be justified.
What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French ex-Marxists. Atheism is not a benign force in history.