Please present a compelling explanation why naturalism is true

[jireh]

Originally Posted by Mjt

[/b] My bold.
sorry jireh, but I think youve got it all a bit backwards. Knowing that when I die I will be gone, no afterlife, means that I must be very careful to live this one well. And by well I dont mean to indulge my every whim, I mean to make sure I am contributing to society in a meaningful and helpful manner.

thats your objective. But if someone else thinks, the best contribution to society is to make ethnical cleansing, to kill people of other races, what objective moral value do you have to say, somebody that thinks like that, is possibly wrong ?

I have children, and as such I have a responsibility to teach them and guide them.

Who has given you this responsability ? If you think, you should behave like animals, that kill and eat their offspring, and think that would be the right thing to do, who can tell you, you are wrong ?

It is from me that they learn to be good people

How can you objectively say, what is good, what is wrong ?

, to be kind and caring and strong, and have empathy and understanding for others, to not judge others, and to look after each other and those around them.

If someone does not share your view, and thinks the oposit, how can you possibly say that person is wrong ? on what ground ? just because its your view, it must be so ?

I live in a community and it is my joy to contribute and share and help the others in that community.

Jeffrey Dahmer thought different. For he, it was a virtue to kill, and eat his victims. Based on what can you say, he did something wrong ? animals do it all the time.......

I am part of the whole world, so I am mindful of many ways I may impact on others even if I never meet them.

why do you care about it ? once you will be dead, others will be dead, we all will be dead..... why do you not enjoy the few years you have on its fullest, and go after what you enjoy most ? if i were a atheist, that would be, what i would do.

For me 'applied atheism'(?) means the responsibility, and the joy are both mine.

for a other atheist, his joy is to rape black women. Why is he wrong, you are right ?

[jireh]

Originally Posted by Atrax Robustus

Compare this then, against the murderer/rapist/paedophile who believes that, on acceptance of Jesus as his/her lord and saviour, all sin is forgiven.

To coin an ill-informed and absolutely naive phrase . . . Applied christianity means: do whatever you wish and pleases you most because confession is absolution.

confession without change is worthless.

[jireh]

Originally Posted by loubert

Jireh, what is your position on slavery?

lets suppose i am a fervent supporter of slavery. On what basis could you possibly say, i am wrong ?

[jireh]

Originally Posted by Logic please

Brrrwwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Ahhh, that central canard of creationism intelligent design, irreducible complexity...

Well jireh, the time ID fronted up for a proper contest of ideas, guess what? It. Got. Smoked.

LINK:

So, what did the court have to say about ID and irreducible complexity, in the decision?

Now for the exquisite irony... the judge in the case was actually religious!!! Sorry, no opportunity for you to claim some immoral godless heathen conspiracy, either.

And since you ended up referencing birds, in your post... methinks that your horribly early crow, is now stuck somewhere in your craw.

BTW, how's that explanation of naturalism in your own words, coming along? Oh please, no rush... it's only the fourth fucking time you've been asked. I also note there's a heap of outstanding queries from other posters as well, so you best get cracking, jireh...

that is really ridiculous. You believe, because this trial was lost, irreducible complexity does not apply. You indeed show superficial thinking......even non theists admit the cell is irreducibly complex.

Popper, K.R., Scientific reduction and the essential incompleteness of all science; in: Ayala, F. and Dobzhansky, T. (Eds.), Studies in the Philosophy of Biology, University of California Press, Berkeley, p. 270, 1974.

the decoding machinery is itself encoded on the DNA. The leading philosopher of science, Karl Popper (1902–1994), expressed the huge problem: ‘What makes the origin of life and of the genetic code a disturbing riddle is this: the genetic code is without any biological function unless it is translated; that is, unless it leads to the synthesis of the proteins whose structure is laid down by the code. But … the machinery by which the cell (at least the non-primitive cell, which is the only one we know) translates the code consists of at least fifty macromolecular components which are themselves coded in the DNA. Thus the code can not be translated except by using certain products of its translation. This constitutes a baffling circle; a really vicious circle, it seems, for any attempt to form a model or theory of the genesis of the genetic code.
‘Thus we may be faced with the possibility that the origin of life (like the origin of physics) becomes an impenetrable barrier to science, and a residue to all attempts to reduce biology to chemistry and physics.

[jireh]

Originally Posted by The Irreverent Mr Black

Jireh, these passive-aggressive evasions are doing your cause no good.

If you want to convince anybody of anything, why not sit down and think for a while, make sure you actually know what you're talking about, and present a reasoned argument with some points?

If I was your god, I'd be...


For a guy who asks people to present a compelling explanation, I would say your explanations are hardly compelling, unless causing laughter counts.

how about you answer my question ?

[jireh]

Originally Posted by THWOTH

Bollocks.

Being of an atheistic outlook DOES NOT mean that one foregoes morality or is somehow immunised against the personal moral consequences of our actions. It just means that our morality is not rooted in an obligation to conform to the capricious will of a mythical authority.

so its obliged to what exactly ?????

[Logic please]

Originally Posted by jireh

lets suppose i am a fervent supporter of slavery. On what basis could you possibly say, i am wrong ?

You keep repeating this type canard-as-question like some mega-knockdown argument. It's not, take my word for it.

Try the harm principle, for starters. If an action causes harm to others, it can be judged to be unethical.

Slavery, rape, murder, genocide, all of the things that you claim atheists have no basis for judging as right or wrong, can be simply assessed as right or wrong, on the basis of whether they cause harm!

And that's without even getting into secular normative ethical theories...

Using these, actions are judged via moral reasoning and discourse.

The position that you espouse is utterly bereft of morality. Whether you're causing harm isn't even a factor. Just do whatever sky-fairy orders! And if sky-fairy is pereceived to be ordering you to kill, you've already admitted that you'd do it, jireh. Thanks for that heads-up.

As myself and stevebrooks posted earlier, how does it feel for you to be working from a similar position to the accused at the Nuremberg trials - "Iwas only following orders"???

"Keep diggin', fella."

[jireh]

Originally Posted by THWOTH

Ethnic cleansing is morally reprehensible.

how do you possibly KNOW that ? on what basis can you make a moral judgement ??

I don't need Jesus to tell me this, and I can justify my moral judgement wholly aside from any particular religious point of view. Let's not forget those Nazi belt-buckles eh?

so you have a moral conscience, right ??? where does it come from ?? how did you get it ?? no animal has one. why do you have one ? why does human kind have one ? it cannot be for survival, otherwise, animals would not exist anymore....... your world view is truly flawed..... wake up.

[jireh]

Originally Posted by THWOTH

Can you give an example of something that God has said to you in a way that was clear enough for you to understand?

Do you think he wants you to bolster your personal faith by entering this lion's den and steadfastly resisting all reason and logic, ignoring questions, erecting strawmen, so that it might justify your feelings of superiority and your absolute conviction that you are absolutely right about him, for example?

sure. the bible is clear enough to me.

[jireh]

Originally Posted by Iseeyouthere

Hilarious. He came here to do... something... I'm struggling to keep on track WHAT he is trying to do now...
I'll stick with 'attempting to weaken our arguements and... err... something something goddidit...copy/paste... pancakes...'

Instead, he has made our group stronger and the thread has become a great source of such educational material (not yours Jireh, keep trying ).
I didn't know you guys where capable of all that... IN YOUR OWN WORDS as well.

how sweet to see all this shoulder clapping...kkkkk