goddamn it

[The Cross]

I've been requested to introduce myself.

As you can probably gather from my name, I am a theist, albeit an open-minded one. I didn't come to this athiest community to start idealogical warfare or to debate the existence of God, but rather to engage in intellectual discussion with some of you guys about the relevence of religion and theology within the present day. I'm at the age where I'm constantly pondering on philosophical thought.

Hopefully, you guys will accept someone who has a belief in a divine presence, and we might just get into some interesting conversations. Five things you must know:

1. While I was exposed to Christianity at a young age, it was not excessive. In fact, I've only been to church 5 times in my life (I'm almost 17).

2. When most of you make claims opposing theism or deism, I will play the role of the devil's advocate (hah!) to provide support for the alternative perspective.

3. I am not here to preach. In fact, I despise preachers myself.

4. I am not a fundamental Christian. In fact, far from it. I do not believe the Earth is 6,000 years old, and I certainly do not buy into any form of intellegent design in the modern sense of the word. To be perfectly honest, I probably think Fundies are just as blind as you do.

5. I'd probably consider myself a Christian Existentialist.

So yeah, that's it for now.

God Bless.

EDIT: You might be able to tell from my avatar that I'm a massive film buff. I have a passion for cinema. If any of you guys share this interest, you've found yourself a new buddy.

[davo]

Originally Posted by The Cross

4. I am not a fundamental Christian. In fact, far from it. I do not believe the Earth is 6,000 years old, and I certainly do not buy into any form of intellegent design in the modern sense of the word. To be perfectly honest, I probably think Fundies are just as blind as you do.

How do you resolve the fact that you take part of the bible as the word of god, and other parts as false?

[davo]

oh btw welcome to the forum

Thinking is a great thing, and I really call on you to not take 'the devils adovocate' position, and put yourself in the place of just trying to defend something, but have a think over issues and ideas presented, and work your own way thru them.

Putting yourself forward from the start as taking a position, is not to be open minded do you agree?

I am open to all your suggestions, if you can convince me that a god exists, I will change my views and perspective immediately. I am not defending a position, I am thinking my own way thru things. As it stands, there is no evidence whatsoever for a god, and indeed, everything that I have come across, points that there could not be a god, logically, as presented by the major religions.

Therefore, if you believe there is a god, and making the claim there is, please present why you have come to this conclusion. Present why there can possibly be a god, and why that god is the one you describe, above all others.

cheers and well met!

[The Cross]

Originally Posted by davo

How do you resolve the fact that you take part of the bible as the word of god, and other parts as false?

Because I believe the Bible should generally be seen from an allegorical and existential perspective. Literalists and fundamentalists do not understand the Bible and Hermeneutics, and use religion through culture or as an emotional crutch, which I believe hampers and obscures a healthy world view. I do not consider the bible as the word of God, rather, I see it as inspired by God.

Originally Posted by davo

oh btw welcome to the forum

Hah, thanks man!
[quote]

Originally Posted by davo

Thinking is a great thing, and I really call on you to not take 'the devils adovocate' position, and put yourself in the place of just trying to defend something, but have a think over issues and ideas presented, and work your own way thru them.

Yeah, once again, poorly worded.

Originally Posted by davo

I am open to all your suggestions, if you can convince me that a god exists, I will change my views and perspective immediately. I am not defending a position, I am thinking my own way thru things. As it stands, there is no evidence whatsoever for a god, and indeed, everything that I have come across, points that there could not be a god, logically, as presented by the major religions.

I see this as a perfectly reasonable stance, and I look forward to future conversation.

Originally Posted by davo

Therefore, if you believe there is a god, and making the claim there is, please present why you have come to this conclusion. Present why there can possibly be a god, and why that god is the one you describe, above all others.

You will see my arguments in the not too distant future.

Originally Posted by davo

cheers and well met!

Right back at you.

[davo]

Originally Posted by The Cross

Because I believe the Bible should generally be seen from an allegorical and existential perspective.

But is the bible telling us anything as humans, we do not inherantly know?

Atheists and other religions have moral values, many if not all the concepts (except for ones that are very much bronze age in the bible) are ones that do not need a belief in a god to be self evident.

If the bible is just allegorical, what is it in it, that brings you to believe in for instance Jesus christ as being the son of god?

Indeed, I believe the whole bible is just an allegorical piece of work, the difference between us, is that you have the concept that it is divinely inspired, rather than the work of man.

What brings you to the conclusion that the bible is divinely inspired?

btw: the matrix rules, even tho it has full on religious connetations

[youngmoigle]

I didn't come to this athiest community to start idealogical warfare or to debate the existence of God

Do you just assume that God exists?

God bless

Which god is doing the blessing?
Check out post #45 on this page.
http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/...merican&page=5

[davo]

Originally Posted by The Cross

I am a theist, albeit an open-minded one.

It's been posted before, but seriously The Cross, this is a great video (and I know you like videos as you have said it

[The Cross]

Originally Posted by davo

But is the bible telling us anything as humans, we do not inherantly know?

This is a bit ambiguous. What exactly do you mean? The Bible is a philosophical text, not a scientific one.

Originally Posted by davo

Atheists and other religions have moral values, many if not all the concepts (except for ones that are very much bronze age in the bible) are ones that do not need a belief in a god to be self evident.

I see what you're saying, but it isn't a well defined point. If you ask me something on this, I'll try my best to answer it.

Originally Posted by davo

If the bible is just allegorical, what is it in it, that brings you to believe in for instance Jesus christ as being the son of god?

The Bible isn't just "allegorical", it is partly historical, and contains solid existential tones (mainly in the New Testament) of which the athiest philosopher Nietzche (The father of Existentialism) believes to be the true "meaning of life". While he does not credit the Bible as inspiration for his progressive thinking, he was highly influenced by the Christian Philosopher Soren Kierkegaard, who credits the Bible entirely for his way of thinking, and is technically the Grandfather of Existentialism; the major framework for the athiestic school of thought.

Originally Posted by davo

Indeed, I believe the whole bible is just an allegorical piece of work, the difference between us, is that you have the concept that it is divinely inspired, rather than the work of man.

You're right, except I do believe it to be the work of man, but not entirely.

Originally Posted by davo

What brings you to the conclusion that the bible is divinely inspired?

I wrote a mini essay on this, but it would be utterly pointless. I can't adequately describe it in words, as if I could give you empirical evidence, then the existence of God would be known.

Let's just say in the context of our world, the Bible makes complete sense and more is more coherent than any other religion. It does not contradict any form of science, and it's influence on the development of mankind has been invaluable. According to Christian Existentialism and the Bible, me trying to explain to you how I believe in God is pointless. Faith is a personal journey.
Imagine if we knew for a fact that God existed. Would there be much point to life?

Originally Posted by davo

btw: the matrix rules, even tho it has full on religious connetations

See what I mean? Religion and art are symbiotic.

I'm joking!

[davo]

I mean that the bible doesn't say anything that humankind could not, and has not, come to the same conclusion, except mankind is willing to judge and make decisions upon the circumstance, where the bible does not.

For instance the bible is quite clear on faith being the gateway to heaven

We are talking about a supreme being here, this supreme being requires faith, if that is given regardless there is the entry to heaven

So lets look at hitler, if hitler repented before death (who knows) he would make it to heaven, yet all the millions of jews without his faith, are condemned to an eternity in hell.

This isn't a joke, this is reality. Faith is considered as the entry to heaven, If you have faith, it does not matter that an atheist that does good all their life, does good, if someone calls on christ on their deathbed they are 'saved'

Some god.

Show me historical evidence for jesus christ. No one has to date, yet you say historical. Where is the evidence other than ONE book? I call that this book uses common acceptance of ideas at the time, and humanitises this as a human. There is no evidence historically as you say there is, show us this historical evidence you claim.

The bible does NOT make complete sense, it is full of contradictions and takes HEAVY interpretation along particular lines to make 'sense'. For a god to put this forward as it's book makes no sense whatsoever.

Please explain how a god could possibly exist, and then explain why that god is your god.

[The Cross]

Originally Posted by The Irreverent Mr Black

The bible says, in reference to itself, that all of it is "given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

Interpretation is not excluded from this. All this states is that the passages are inspired by God (as I said), and that they are the truth, and are fit for teaching. The problem is, due to the nature of linguistics, an objective interpretation of the text is not possible, particularly in the parables featured in Biblical nature.

So the "scientific bits", non-heliocentric and flat-earthed as they are, would be included in this. The same bible says:

I am not "taking away" or "adding words" into the Bible though. I am merely interpretating what is there. I'm not saying, believe this and this, but pretend that is not there. I am trying to make sense of what is stated in the Bible, and references to non-heliocentricism, a geo-centric Earth and a flat-Earth aren't absolute. The terms "Four corners" and "pillars" [of the Earth] are mentioned in the Bible (Sporadically, but I can't give you the exact passage) but are used in metaphorical language today. In the Bible, Isaiah 40:22, Proverbs 8:27 and Luke 17:34 explain a rounded Earth and promote heliocentricism. Not only that, but Job 26:7 explains an Earth that "hangeth upon nothing", whilst also telling us that nothing is above the North Pole; an idea which was refuted until 1932.

Of course, one could argue that those are also allegorical, but then that still cancels out the claim that the Bible promotes a geo-centric, flat Earth.

Originally Posted by Black

You may be operating from a non-literal interpretation or partial text: in this case you will probably need to tell us what your bible consists of, and how it is to be read, so we can avoid communication problems.

Everything is literally true, except if it utilises metaphorical, analogical or allegorical use of language.

Originally Posted by Black

And partly forgery, in the case of 19 out of 27 New Testament books.

I'll get back to this, it's a bit too much to read at 2am in the morning. It's a man who claims to have unearthed a conspiracy, no doubt.

You are employing a common fallacy here, TheCross. Atheism is simply belief in no god: there is no "school of thought".

Athiesm is a "school of thought" in a philosophical sense, albeit one that is completely unrestricted. What I meant was, existentialism is the major view taken by athiests.

Some of us have never been believers, and never questioned why that is, while others have closely examined the issues and reinforced their unbelief (and may have encountered the works of Nietzsche and Kierkegaard while doing so).

I understand this.

Personally, I am a recovered believer, and have come to my unbelief through the exhaustion and death of belief.

Okay.

I have gone, further than many on this forum, in search of god. Even managed to fool myself for a number of years, but I had to eventually admit there was person, no power, no principle there.

Okay.

The bible contradicts many sciences, biological, astronomical, and sociological. As science progresses, the bible becomes wronger.

I'll use your strategy here, and ask you to "support your claims".

And if we knew for a fact that god did not exist, there would still be coffee, capsaicin, and ponies.

But no more Christmas presents and Easter eggs!

Oh wait, there'd still be hypocrites.

Life is not actually pivotal on the being or non-being of god.

But philosophy and perspectivism is.

And with that, I'm going to bed. It's been an interesting welcome.