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  #31  
Old 9th March 2017, 01:19 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

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c2105026 said View Post
Just to wade in....

Private education should be funded at a similar level as public because I feel that all children's education is worthy of Govt support. If parents want to top that up with extra fees and donations that's their prerogative. There are pluses and minuses, some kids may benefit from a private school environment, some may not.
While this seems reasonable on the face of it it is a failure to see details. Public schools must provide coverage in all areas. When private schools are funded in the same area as a public school that is extra funding. The overhead costs do not move with the child.

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Gonski - I am going to break with my former NSWTF colleagues and say with all the extra money thrown at education there has not been a wholistic improvement in performance across the school system. There are programs here and there that are working, but overall educational authorities need to fix the problem rather than throw money at it.
Certainly funding is no guaranteed promoter of quality. However the extra funding is largely absorbed by the funding given to private schools. Available performance measures are poor since they are focussed on tests like Naplan. Outcome targets are not well considered or well rounded. Private schools may not do any better than public schools overall but we don't know.
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  #32  
Old 9th March 2017, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

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c2105026 said View Post
Just to wade in....

Private education should be funded at a similar level as public because I feel that all children's education is worthy of Govt support. If parents want to top that up with extra fees and donations that's their prerogative. There are pluses and minuses, some kids may benefit from a private school environment, some may not.

Gonski - I am going to break with my former NSWTF colleagues and say with all the extra money thrown at education there has not been a wholistic improvement in performance across the school system. There are programs here and there that are working, but overall educational authorities need to fix the problem rather than throw money at it.
It is a bit of a conundrum really. The role of governments is to provide universal public goods, funded by taxation and other revenues. We do not put a toll on rich people's cars to use a road or highway. Either everyone is tolled, or no one. [Although there is a case for tolling heavy trucks, because they do disproportionate damage to roads].

On the other hand, do religious institutions like schools and hospitals provide universal services? A religious hospital may refuse [even if it is a PUBLIC HOSPITAL eg SJOG] to provide family planning services, especially abortions], and a religious school may compel the student to attend religious services, or some other obligations, such as Notre Dame University's introductory ethics course, which has a distinct bias towards catholic values.

To muddy the waters even further, State Schools are doing psychological services on the cheap, via the Chaplains For Schools program, rather than paying for the more expensive professional counsellors trained in psychology and social work. Perhaps they would not need to stoop so low, if money was taken away from Religious schools and put back into the Public School System, and CFS program abolished.

In all sorts of ways, religious schools and hospitals and charities are privileged. They attract subsidies and tax breaks, and yet do not provide equality of access to services, even those which can be classed as public goods.

The very idea of private hospitals, schools etc [whether religious or not] automatically sets up a two-tier system in society, entrenching privilege!

Of course one is going to be better off [in many ways] going to a private school or private hospital!

Private organisations, with access to both private and public funds can employ more and better professionals, have more better equipment, etc.

Most wealth is inherited, but even if it were not, would one deny a driver to buy a Rolls-Royce rather than a Volkswagen? Both will do the function of getting people from A to B. Of course not.

But cars are not public goods. Public transportation systems [busses, trains etc] are public goods.
I would argue that medicine and education are public goods also. Because both not only benefit the individual, but impact on society also. [Communicable diseases, and the public benefits of an educated population for commerce and society].

To even think of funding private schools or hospitals via public funds, there must be no formal or informal barriers to public access or use, and the organisation must provide a full range of services without fear or favour.

And of course, public institutions should not buy into privilege or inequity, explicitly or implicitly.
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  #33  
Old 9th March 2017, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

School fees doesn't necessarily automatically equal privilege 100% of the time. Many working class families make sacrifices to cover the fees. OTOH wealthy families may forgo private education with more focus on direct financial support, paying for Uni, but the a car etc.Having taught in both systems I have seen students completely waste opportunities in private system.

If you take too much money away from private schools you will jeopadise their survival, with an influx of students into still under resourced public schools. Wherever students go, they will need to be funded.

Yes as a current private school teacher ��*�� I have massive conflict of interest lol
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Old 9th March 2017, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

School fees doesn't necessarily automatically equal privilege 100% of the time. Many working class families make sacrifices to cover the fees. OTOH wealthy families may forgo private education with more focus on direct financial support, paying for Uni, but the a car etc.Having taught in both systems I have seen students completely waste opportunities in private system.

If you take too much money away from private schools you will jeopadise their survival, with an influx of students into still under resourced public schools. Wherever students go, they will need to be funded.

Yes as a current private school teacher 👨*🏫 I have massive conflict of interest lol
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  #35  
Old 9th March 2017, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

Private schools are run at a profit, selectively choose pupils and take public money.

They do not have to take the children that public schools have to.

Private school students have no academic edge over students in the public system, study finds

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Australian researchers have confirmed a growing body of international research that finds the high cost of private school education does not give students an academic edge over their public school counterparts.

The study, which has been published in the Australian Journal of Labour Economics, found that once the more privileged backgrounds of private school students are taken into account, they fare no better in the education system than other children.

The research from the University of Queensland, the University of Southern Queensland and Curtin University examined the vexed issue facing many parents when choosing between a public or private education for their children.

Co-author of the study, Professor Luke Connelly, said primary students do just as well academically in either system.

"We're looking at primary school kids here, these are kids in years three and five," he said.

"And so this is the first study of its kind for Australia that shows at this young age that there are no differences between Catholic, independent and public schools.

"There's actually some poorer outcomes for kids at Catholic schools interestingly. That's also been mirrored in the international literature. There are some slighter poorer outcomes.

"An exception for kids in Catholic school is that some of the behavioural issues that we also look at, including in this case peer to peer relationships, the performance seems slightly better for Catholic school kids.

"But other than that, we don't actually see any appreciable differences in academic performance."

Parents paying for choice, not advantage: association

Some in the independent education sector dismissed the research while others argued the research took an "overly simplistic" view.

Yvonne Luxford, executive director of the Independent Schools Council of Australia, questioned the results.

"Even the preschool testing that they did in the paper, it shows that on the raw results there, the children in independent schools did score higher," she said.

Ron Gorman from the Association of Independent Schools of Western Australia said one survey that looked at academic merit did not go far enough.

"When looking at results, it can be an overly simplistic view of what constitutes success because the measures are actually quite narrow," he said.

David Robertson from the Queensland Independent Schools Association said the choice to send your child to a private school was centred on the individual needs of the child and not primarily academic results.

"The reason they make that sacrifice is they believe what those independent schools provide, in educational opportunities and educational programs, is what is in the best interests of their child," he said.

Mr Robertson said parents of private school students were not paying to give their children an advantage but rather the "right" education.

"That money is parental contribution. That is what parents contribute to the costs of schooling," he said.

"Well they're paying to get an education they think is right for their child - that's the point."

Socio-economic backgrounds also a factor in performance

The choice between public and private education may not make a difference to child performance but other factors like baby birth weight and who their parents are, is crucial.

Children with a birth weight of less than 2.5 kilograms achieve significantly lower test scores later in life, particularly in grammar and numeracy.

Professor Connelly said the study found other factors that contribute to classroom performance.

"The other things that matter are the level of education of the parents, the number of books in the home, also the area - the residential neighbourhood and its characteristics - the household income, and interestingly enough as well the working hours of the mother," he said.

"So as working hours increased for the mother, some of these test scores also decline a bit.

"And I guess that latter result really just shows some of the importance of the parental time input in relation to kids' success at school as well."

Meanwhile the working hours of fathers had no impact.

"We didn't find any similar result for the males' working hours and that's an interesting point of difference," Professor Connelly said.

The research also finds poorer results for school children from Indigenous backgrounds and those whose parents had not completed Year 12 at school themselves.
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  #36  
Old 9th March 2017, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

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c2105026 said View Post

If you take too much money away from private schools you will jeopadise their survival, with an influx of students into still under resourced public schools. Wherever students go, they will need to be funded.

Yes as a current private school teacher 👨*🏫 I have massive conflict of interest lol
My bold.

More than 150 private schools over-funded by hundreds of millions of dollars each year

Quote:
More than 150 private schools are being over-funded by hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars each year at the expense of other needy students, according to a new analysis that details the distortions and inequities in Australia's school funding system.

The analysis by Fairfax Media reveals some wealthy schools are over-funded by $7 million a year while many schools in both the public and private sectors remain significantly underfunded.

Federal and state governments would have more than $215 million extra a year to distribute to needy schools if they stopped funding others above what they are entitled to under the Gonski formula, the analysis shows. Schools deemed to be over-funded by the federal government receive more than $1 billion a year in taxpayer funding.

Education Minister Simon Birmingham this week sparked a national debate by saying some schools are over-funded and may need to have their funding reduced from 2018. It would take more than 100 years for some over-funded schools to return to their appropriate funding under the current model, he said.

Fairfax Media's analysis, based on available data from the My School website and the Department of Education, shows the over-funding of schools is particularly acute in NSW.

Private schools in NSW received a combined $129 million above their notional entitlement in 2014.

These include elite girls school Loreto Kirribilli, which received $7.3 million in government funding - 283 per cent of its entitlement.

Peter Goss, school education program director at the Grattan Institute, said: "There is no public policy justification for over-funded schools such as these to continue receiving increasing funding each year.

"At a minimum they should not receive any funding increases."

Mr Goss said removing generous indexation rates for over-funded schools would not fix the school funding system alone but would free up funds to distribute to needy schools in both the public and private sectors.

More than 150 private schools across Australia received funding above their Schooling Resource Standard in 2014, according to the Department of Education.

The Schooling Resource Standard (SRS) measures how much taxpayer funding each school is entitled to based on a formula including special loadings for disadvantage.

By combining this data with school finance information on the My School website, Fairfax Media calculated the funding entitlement and over-spend for all the nation's over-funded private schools.

The analysis shows Daramalan College in Canberra, which received $14 million in government funding in 2014, is the most over-funded school in the country in dollar terms.

The school received 198 per cent of its SRS entitlement, meaning it should only have received $7 million a year in funding according to the Gonski formula.

It was closely followed by Oakhill College, an independent Catholic school that sits on an expansive 18 hectare site in Sydney's Castle Hill.

As well as an indoor swimming pool and gym, the school's website says it has a recording studio, photography lab and a farm complete with livestock.

Oakhill College received $15.7 million in taxpayer funding in 2014, which is $6.8 million more than its funding entitlement.

Melbourne Grammar School, which charges fees of up to $32,520, was the most over-funded school in Victoria in dollar terms. It received $7.3 million in government funding, more than the $5.1 million it was entitled to.

Meanwhile, some private schools such as the Rossbourne School in Hawthorn, which specialises in educating students with intellectual disabilities, received only 67 per cent of its funding entitlement. Herrick Presbyterian Covenant School in Tasmania received just 41 per cent of its entitlement.
Funding to private schools rose 'at twice the rate of public schools': report

Quote:
Government funding to private schools has increased at twice the rate of funding to public schools, a new union analysis of My School data has revealed.

Releasing the report on Monday, Australian Education Union federal president Correna Haythorpe slammed the Turnbull government's plan to scrap the needs-based Gonski funding model after 2017.

She said the move would fail students and further entrench inequity.

The analysis, using the most recent My School data, showed that between 2009 and 2014, combined states and federal government annual funding for independent schools rose by $1911 per student, in increase of 30.3 per cent, not adjusted for inflation.

Funding for public schools rose by $1539 per student, an increase of 14.6 per cent.

For Catholic schools, funding rose by $2332 per student, an increase of 30.2 per cent.

Ms Haythorpe said the figures highlighted the importance of implementing the full six years of Gonski funding, without which the system would regress.

"In the years leading up to Gonski we were not funding schools on the basis of need. We had a flawed and inefficient funding system, which was delivering the biggest gains to private schools," Ms Haythorpe said.

The first amounts of Gonski funding coming into the system in 2014 was "making a difference in schools – students are beginning to get the smaller classes, one-to-one support and extra literacy and numeracy programs they need".

"But without the full six years of the Gonski agreements we won't close these gaps in funding."

"Malcolm Turnbull's plan would see gaps in resources between schools grow, and fail to address the inequities caused by a system which gave the biggest funding increases to advantaged schools.

"He wants to return to a system which ignores student need and leaves thousands of students without the support they need to succeed at school.

"Disadvantaged schools don't need cuts to Gonski. They need the $4.5 billion in investment Labor and the Greens are promising, which will see all schools with the resources they need to educate their students."

The AEU analysis found that in 2014, independent and Catholic schools had more resources (recurrent funding) per student than public schools, including fees and other income, "despite educating far smaller numbers of disadvantaged students".

It found there was $17,604 annual funding per student in independent schools, $12,998 per student in Catholic schools, and $12,779 per student in public schools.

In addition, low socio-economic status students comprised 9 per cent of independent school enrolments and 14 per cent of Catholic schools', compared to 30 per cent of public school enrolments.

But Federal Education Minister Simon Birmingham said Labor and the unions were selectively using data to peddle a scare campaign.

He said between 2004-05 and 2013-14 Federal funding on a per-student basis for government schools had grown in real terms by 66.1 per cent, and funding for non-government schools had grown by 18 per cent.

Public school students received "significantly more total government funding per student than what goes to private school students".

"On average, total government funding for a student going to a public school is over $16,000 per year, while the support for a student attending an non-government school is $9,300 – more than 40 per cent less."

Mr Birmingham said: "Any disparate growth in funding for non-government schools relative to government schools is entirely down to state government decisions, given federal support has been growing much faster in the government sector.

The Coalition was "the only party with a fully funded and affordable plan that ensures money is directed where it's most needed and focuses on proven measures that will improve outcomes in literacy, numeracy, STEM subjects and prepare students for the jobs of the future".

"We will build on the existing record base for federal funding in schools, which will grow by $4.1 billion or 26.5 per cent from 2015-16 to 2019-20 including increasing funding to government schools by an estimated 33 per cent and to non-government schools by an estimated 22 per cent."
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  #37  
Old 9th March 2017, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

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Taxpayer funding should not be directed at providing some students with additional advantages over and above those available by virtue of a privileged family background. To devote public resources to extending the advantages of a student from a wealthy background over a student from a disadvantaged background is to enhance social inequity. Such use of taxpayer funds provides even greater opportunities for the privileged to gain the intrinsic rewards of education such as access to economic resources as well as positions of social status and power in society. It means that scarce funds are diverted from serving those with high learning needs to those with few needs. Government funding for private schools can only be justified on the basis of need.
Those with annual fees of $20,000 or more a year are not in need.
www.saveourschools.com.au/file_download/226
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  #38  
Old 9th March 2017, 07:38 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

The advantage of private schools, in the absence of teaching excellence, can be the perceived value of that education. Or the "old school tie" effect. "Oh, you went to Eton did you old chap? "Well, of course we need you."

I had a friend that went to Notre Dame Uni. He was a "cultural Catholic". Sort of believed in god, but not really. Like some of the Catholic positions but cherry-picked from them. He is brighter than me [not difficult!], but he couldn't debunk Anselm's ontological argument for the existence of God. He knew instinctively there was something wrong with it, he just didn't know what.

I don't see much value in a an education that can teach you to debunk some things, but not others. I mean, even if I was a Catholic, I would want to know how an anti-Catholic or anti-god argument worked. Anyway "P" soon grasped my point, but the harder bit was how to take the piss out of Anselm in such a way as to make our point, but not put the academic's nose out of joint, and fail "P's" paper.

Not that religious folks are unique in having that sort of blindness. I was trying to persuade a Greens member of the value of knowing and understanding the pig-dog capitalist-environmental-POV. Knowing and understanding what people are about, and how their arguments work [or don't work] is a necessary skill and it does not mean you agree with them.

Many people think that knowing and understanding a POV means you are an apologist for that POV. I just don't understand it and it has got me in hot water more than once!
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  #39  
Old 10th March 2017, 10:47 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

Some schools may be overfunded. Mine probably is. I mean, my class sizes run from 8-17. But in saying that if any money is taken from the schools the balance would need to be made up through either lower services or higher fees, making the schools a lesser choice. This may trigger some students to switch schools. They arrive in a public school and voila they still need the 10-15k recurring funding every student gets regardless.

According to MySchool, my school gets $10800 total recurrent government funding per student. In my area, a typical primary school student gets $9k and a public high school student gets 13k. I would argue that this is fair. Yes MET got $24 mil in capital $$$ but they did build whole new campuses etc. Kings in Sydney gets about 5k/student from the govt, 1/3 of what a typical public school student gets, so it appears there are some equity measures already built into the system whereby wealthier schools get less recurrent funding.

I still maintain that every students education is worthy of some govt funding, (even if there is a sliding scale based on the level of fees particular institutions may charge) and if parents wish to top this up with extra fees and donations, that is their choice.

Even if private schools were done away with, the networks that may bring about life success would still exist through work, family and community contacts.

I do appreciate that my experience as a beginning teacher teaching in both sectors has perhaps coloured my perception. The private system has so far offered a more positive experience with greater support.
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Old 11th March 2017, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: In defence of Gonski

Private schools are a business pure and simple. And most schools and even governments have no clue about what we need to be teaching kids to survive let alone be successful. Rapid technological change means we need a new approach to education. Technology has made learning accessible to everyone and not something reserved for the privileged few.
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