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  #21  
Old 15th January 2018, 08:56 AM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Warren Jeffs: child sex, polygamy, and other matters

As somebody who has studied briefly evolutionary biology this sort of case really should get a lot more attention for the existential questions it raises about our most basic values. Are we to live in a paradigm stuck in genesis of go forth and multiply and subdue the earth. It should be noted that in biological terms such crime does pay. Like genghis khan or Nazi germans, relative evolutionary fitness can be acquired by killing and subjugating others. However the most evolutionary fit individial may be such a despicable person as to seem little more human than a reproducing amoeba. At 53 children it is certainly a potential case study of how the innate drive for relative evolutionary fitness may be a factor in such crimes and also have a lot more to do with human behaviour than we recognise. Notable also is the link between his crimes and anti-abortion mentality and guilt trip he imposed on his daughter victim.
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  #22  
Old 15th January 2018, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: Warren Jeffs: child sex, polygamy, and other matters

@Wadaye: Scientifically, I'd sooner a study into curing the immunity afforded to cruel, creepy people for religion's sake.
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  #23  
Old 15th January 2018, 09:38 AM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Warren Jeffs: child sex, polygamy, and other matters

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@Wadaye: Scientifically, I'd sooner a study into curing the immunity afforded to cruel, creepy people for religion's sake.
Same thing really. Its about why do we as a society allow this stuff to go on
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  #24  
Old 15th January 2018, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: Warren Jeffs: child sex, polygamy, and other matters

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As somebody who has studied briefly evolutionary biology this sort of case really should get a lot more attention for the existential questions it raises about our most basic values. Are we to live in a paradigm stuck in genesis of go forth and multiply and subdue the earth. It should be noted that in biological terms such crime does pay. Like genghis khan or Nazi germans, relative evolutionary fitness can be acquired by killing and subjugating others. However the most evolutionary fit individial may be such a despicable person as to seem little more human than a reproducing amoeba. At 53 children it is certainly a potential case study of how the innate drive for relative evolutionary fitness may be a factor in such crimes and also have a lot more to do with human behaviour than we recognise. Notable also is the link between his crimes and anti-abortion mentality and guilt trip he imposed on his daughter victim.

Hmmm...... I am not too sure. For one thing, biological and cultural evolution can work both antagonistically and synergistically for many traits. So evolution of traits in social animals can be quite complex and full of confounds.

One thing that seems to be common in human and non-human social species is the concept of fairness. If members think that things are too unfair ["Nazi-type" leadership for example], that society becomes both dysfunctional and can be unstable in the long term. This phenomena has been reported in our closest relatives, chimpanzees etc., but also in such diverse taxa as the social Hymenoptera. For example, if a queen bee starts to fuck with the sex ratios, thus threatening their offspring, the workers will sting her and kill her. Well, she should have read Thomas Hobbes's "Leviathan" as all Machiavellian rulers should.

I am not saying that there is not selection for some nasty traits, and those nasty traits can and do lead to some fitness value, but other traits can tend to balance things out a bit.

The whole benefit of cooperative social living is just that-cooperation. If the membership are too screwed by leaders, that will not last. If that were not the case, in human societies for example, we would have eternal dynasties of Hitlers.

Hobbes was probably the first, or certainly the best, to point this out. Never mind ethics, tyranny is dumb and an absolute danger to leaders who try it [and of course the followers who have to suffer it]. Maybe that is why society has ethical rules, to stop things getting too unstable and unfair.

ETA: Many social species [including humans] have cognitive abilities and memory, and recognition of individuals. This means they will remember and understand who is being fair and who is trying to screw them, including leaders. So there is an emergent "intelligent design" here [that unlike the creationist version, does not violate causality and a whole lot of other shit] where the members can [and often do] function as intelligent agents that try and look after their own interests.
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  #25  
Old 15th January 2018, 12:03 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Warren Jeffs: child sex, polygamy, and other matters

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...


Hmmm...... I am not too sure. For one thing, biological and cultural evolution can work both antagonistically and synergistically for many traits. So evolution of traits in social animals can be quite complex and full of confounds.

One thing that seems to be common in human and non-human social species is the concept of fairness. If members think that things are too unfair ["Nazi-type" leadership for example], that society becomes both dysfunctional and can be unstable in the long term. This phenomena has been reported in our closest relatives, chimpanzees etc., but also in such diverse taxa as the social Hymenoptera. For example, if a queen bee starts to fuck with the sex ratios, thus threatening their offspring, the workers will sting her and kill her. Well, she should have read Thomas Hobbes's "Leviathan" as all Machiavellian rulers should.

I am not saying that there is not selection for some nasty traits, and those nasty traits can and do lead to some fitness value, but other traits can tend to balance things out a bit.

The whole benefit of cooperative social living is just that-cooperation. If the membership are too screwed by leaders, that will not last. If that were not the case, in human societies for example, we would have eternal dynasties of Hitlers.

Hobbes was probably the first, or certainly the best, to point this out. Never mind ethics, tyranny is dumb and an absolute danger to leaders who try it [and of course the followers who have to suffer it]. Maybe that is why society has ethical rules, to stop things getting too unstable and unfair.

ETA: Many social species [including humans] have cognitive abilities and memory, and recognition of individuals. This means they will remember and understand who is being fair and who is trying to screw them, including leaders. So there is an emergent "intelligent design" here [that unlike the creationist version, does not violate causality and a whole lot of other shit] where the members can [and often do] function as intelligent agents that try and look after their own interests.

This is the prisoner's dilema/tragedy of the commons idea.
An individual can defect against the interests of the group in favor of their own interests, up to a point. We don't really think about how much we do cooperate in this society and what we mean by cooperation.
At its basic cooperation means not killing one's neighbour, providing the confidence to walk down the street without expecting to be raped and murdered. That is done away with through wars, B52s, failure to supply medicine to poor countries, etcetera. But within societies generally there is cooperation in the sense of laws which are often enforced though never universally (or not at all in some countries) against murder. The Black Rights Matter movement is a response to such statistically provable facts.

Society can tolerate a large degree of antagonism to the collective interest in favor of individual gain, through externalising the costs (Entropy), or putting out the garbage, or sewerage as the case may be. So for example with this particular low life, he rapes his daughters and impregnates them, and the resultant child pays the cost rather than him, in the event of disability or death due to homozygosity. Too many homozygotes in the society also increases the risks for future generations, particularly if they reproduce with other members if the group.
the man increases his own sense of value by reducing others, including his own children, into breeding machines for him. that is cost externalisation to society. there is also cost externalisation to the environment. the man wants 53 children. the environment can only accomodate such a birthrate of a few individuals so other members of society must by definition reduce their own birth rate or take more from the environment. the increased population is all subsidised for example by the cows who pay the price to feed the extra people, the land which has to be appropriated from nature to feed them, the air which will absorb their carbon and other emissions, society which must pay for their upkeep and education and medicals, in particular for the boys such groups dump as homeless and the disproportionately high number of children born with a disability due to inbreeding.

ultimately such men who privilege their own genetic reproduction over human rights and welfare provide an unmistakable glimpse of the malthusian problem.
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  #26  
Old 15th January 2018, 12:26 PM
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Default Re: Warren Jeffs: child sex, polygamy, and other matters

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This is the prisoner's dilema/tragedy of the commons idea.
An individual can defect against the interests of the group in favor of their own interests, up to a point. We don't really think about how much we do cooperate in this society and what we mean by cooperation.
At its basic cooperation means not killing one's neighbour, providing the confidence to walk down the street without expecting to be raped and murdered. That is done away with through wars, B52s, failure to supply medicine to poor countries, etcetera. But within societies generally there is cooperation in the sense of laws which are often enforced though never universally (or not at all in some countries) against murder. The Black Rights Matter movement is a response to such statistically provable facts.

Society can tolerate a large degree of antagonism to the collective interest in favor of individual gain, through externalising the costs (Entropy), or putting out the garbage, or sewerage as the case may be. So for example with this particular low life, he rapes his daughters and impregnates them, and the resultant child pays the cost rather than him, in the event of disability or death due to homozygosity. Too many homozygotes in the society also increases the risks for future generations, particularly if they reproduce with other members if the group.
the man increases his own sense of value by reducing others, including his own children, into breeding machines for him. that is cost externalisation to society. there is also cost externalisation to the environment. the man wants 53 children. the environment can only accomodate such a birthrate of a few individuals so other members of society must by definition reduce their own birth rate or take more from the environment. the increased population is all subsidised for example by the cows who pay the price to feed the extra people, the land which has to be appropriated from nature to feed them, the air which will absorb their carbon and other emissions, society which must pay for their upkeep and education and medicals, in particular for the boys such groups dump as homeless and the disproportionately high number of children born with a disability due to inbreeding.

ultimately such men who privilege their own genetic reproduction over human rights and welfare provide an unmistakable glimpse of the malthusian problem.
Sure, and I wasn't claiming that a sense of fairness would totally negate such evil shit. But even if we allow that being a bastard an evolutionarily stable strategy, it is not the only one. In the case of the abused kids, there may be quantity involved, but certainly not quality. Kids born into such an abusive household may not thrive as well as those with fewer kids and more nurturing parents, so as far as biological [or for that matter] cultural fitness you have to look downstream and beyond the F1 generation. People who abuse kids were often abused as children too.
Another point is although humans are not biologically eusocial, we are culturally eusocial. So parents are not the only influence on the child, there is the education system, community leaders and so on, that take an active role in the care [sometimes misplaced, eg stolen generation] of children in the community.

While I agree there s certainly ample cause for some grave concern at the individual level and that of society, I don't think the situation calls for such extreme pessimism.
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  #27  
Old 15th January 2018, 02:05 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Warren Jeffs: child sex, polygamy, and other matters

Hi DB I didn't think Iwas being pessimistic at all, jsut realistic. Killing others, especially those of the same gender, increasse one's own relative biological fitness. That's why genocide's occur with such commonplace regularity as to be an embarrasment to the human speces.
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  #28  
Old 15th January 2018, 02:16 PM
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Hi DB I didn't think Iwas being pessimistic at all, jsut realistic. Killing others, especially those of the same gender, increasse one's own relative biological fitness. That's why genocide's occur with such commonplace regularity as to be an embarrasment to the human speces.
Indeed, the reality of it all is a bit depressing, although I think we can do better. [I hope so anyway].
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  #29  
Old 15th January 2018, 08:41 PM
wadaye wadaye is offline
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Default Re: Warren Jeffs: child sex, polygamy, and other matters

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Hi DB I didn't think Iwas being pessimistic at all, jsut realistic. Killing others, especially those of the same gender, increasse one's own relative biological fitness. That's why genocide's occur with such commonplace regularity as to be an embarrasment to the human speces.
Indeed, the reality of it all is a bit depressing, although I think we can do better. [I hope so anyway].
Indeed we do so often that its cause for hope. I guess what I have been thinking about is how the underlying issue of competition for relative (evolutionary) fitness also informs much of the competitive way that society is set up, even if we are cooperating in the sense of not raping, killing, or even eating each other. However we do tend to offshore much of the misery of the system so that we don't have to look at these acts when they are imposed.
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