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Religions Discussions on the various world religions and their impacts now and throughout history.

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Old 17th July 2017, 09:29 AM
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Default The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

I have ascribed to the opinion that supporting the reformation of religions to make them less violent is the wrong approach to the problem.
The two videos linked here are well worth watching but the second clearly explains my objection to supporting any light version of any religion.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...S&utm_campaign

Sorry about the spelling error in the title, my bad.
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Last edited by bruce1937; 17th July 2017 at 09:31 AM. Reason: Apology.
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Old 17th July 2017, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

Speeling error? I don't see no steenking speeling error.
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Old 17th July 2017, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

Thanks for fixing it.
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Old 17th July 2017, 10:20 AM
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Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

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bruce1937 said View Post
I have ascribed to the opinion that supporting the reformation of religions to make them less violent is the wrong approach to the problem.
The two videos linked here are well worth watching but the second clearly explains my objection to supporting any light version of any religion.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...S&utm_campaign

Sorry about the spelling error in the title, my bad.

I see the reformation of Christianity as one of the prime movers in the increasing rise of atheism today in western countries. There are only two ways to get rid of a religion, kill all it's followers or show them that there is no difference between following a religion and not following a religion. Once you get to the latter point the religion will slowly die.


The problem is of course it has taken many hundred of years to get to this stage in Christianity, do we have the time available with Islam. The time problem is of our own making, when christianity was ascendant the worst weapons around were primitive, modern weapons make religions far more dangerous, maybe we should stop selling weapons to other countries, specially ones that use them without proper regard for their citizens.


Of course a number of incidents with Christianity also indicate the danger of giving weapons to the religious who see every non-believer as the enemy, a tricky one indeed.
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Old 17th July 2017, 10:51 AM
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Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

Religions are unreformable. It is like putting a naked mole rat in an Arctic scene and expecting that they won't evolve a fur coat. [Or go extinct]. Anything based on fantasy will mutate in unpredictable ways, because reason and evidence has nothing to do with it.

Religion is an addiction which affects people in different ways. If there was no religion, there could be no religious jihadists. There might be other types of violent nutjobs, but no religious ones.

Is religion as ubiquitous as alcohol? Perhaps. But there is nothing to "anchor" religion. Science is anchored in "reality" by reason and evidence, epistemological rigour, falsifiable statements, etc.

In religion, reality is just claimed, with no requirement to justify those claims. It has no 'reality" compass. Inevitably, there will be perturbations of good and evil within it's ranks.
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:08 AM
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Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

I disagree with the strategy that Sam Harris has taken by promoting Maajid Nawaz's agenda of reforming Islam, I think he has neutered himself as an advocate for reason in the mistaken belief that we need to promote a reformation of Islam rather than attack all religions as intellectually dishonest.

I agree with Armin Navabi's statement that it is easier to convince a believer that their beliefs are unfounded than to perform the cognitive gymnastics of convincing them that what their holy books clearly state, is not what they should be interpreted as saying.
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

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I disagree with the strategy that Sam Harris has taken by promoting Maajid Nawaz's agenda of reforming Islam, I think he has neutered himself as an advocate for reason in the mistaken belief that we need to promote a reformation of Islam rather than attack all religions as intellectually dishonest.

I agree with Armin Navabi's statement that it is easier to convince a believer that their beliefs are unfounded than to perform the cognitive gymnastics of convincing them that what their holy books clearly state, is not what they should be interpreted as saying.
I find myself disagreeing with Harris more and more as time passes.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:22 PM
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Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

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I find myself disagreeing with Harris more and more as time passes.


not sure I am agreeing or disagreeing with him more and more, but he always makes me think. I still probably agree a lot more than disagree.

I agree with his point, when asked about why an atheist such as himself would collaborate with someone like Majid, that it is unrealistic to expect a billion muslims to become apostates.

I also agree that reforming a religion, in a sense of turning in into some benign philosophy, is not possible. fundamentalism will always be possible and present.

so to me it is not about reforming Islam as much as it is about trying to accelerate the same process which saw the other two Abrahamic religions fade from many corners they once occupied. it is about empowering the moderates. it won't get rid of Islam as it did not get rid of the other religions. but I think we can all agree that despite the higher-than-desirable prominence of religion in the West, we are still way ahead of where we were a hundred years ago. it is a long, slow, gradual process and with enough chinks in the armour, it will eventually yield.

the world would be a much better place if the reach and influence of Islam was reduced to the same levels of Christianity. and this is already a good thing. once there, it will be easier to get to the next stage.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

Good secular education will do far more to reduce the reach of the nastier interpretations of Islam than a million tonnes of bombs. Or a thousand Guantamos.

Which is easier said than done, of course.
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Old 17th July 2017, 02:35 PM
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Default Re: The reformation of religions is a waste of time in the long run.

I see no contradition between positing that religion is intellectually vacuous while at the same time promoting a reduction in the harms caused by current policies within extant religions. While increased secularism and media focus on the worst religious overreach is (imo) driving at least some of the exodus from religion in general, reformation of extant religions will only occur with large effort from those within and thus should be encouraged.
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