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  #1  
Old 10th April 2014, 04:10 AM
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Default intelligent creator

I need the answer for this claim: with intelligent creation we must have intelligent creator.

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  #2  
Old 10th April 2014, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

And is it true that all matter had a beginning but we don't know how ? And it will have an end and also we don't know how?

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Old 10th April 2014, 09:36 AM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

"don't know" and "therefore my god did it" are two different things. One of them is honest. The first in no way supports the second.
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Old 10th April 2014, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

i heared it is scientificly proven that all matters had a beginning and will have an end. I just wanted to confirm . Yes or no

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Old 10th April 2014, 10:17 AM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

Quote:
theman707 said View Post
i heared it is scientificly proven that all matters had a beginning and will have an end. I just wanted to confirm . Yes or no

only ME can judge me
My understanding is that usually this claim is part of the Kalarm Cosmological Argument which is basically, everything that exists was created, the universe exists, therefore it has a creator, and that creator is god.

The problem is that they suddenly need to shoehorn in something which wasn't created (their god). Various debators try and get around this by stating that their god is the uncaused creator, so suddenly, they go from "everything" to "various values of everything, which doesn't include my god".

By them trying to get this argument to wash, they need to put up a creator, that is outside of time and space, but able to affect things inside of time and space, that doesn't have a beginning, and therefore doesn't have an end. The only way that this argument has any sort of standing, is if you accept a whole heap of assumptions about the nature of their god.

My understanding is that we can determine what happened in the universe from a very very very short time (billionths of a second) after the big bang to now, but we don't know what actually happened to cause the big bang, we don't know what was there before the big bang (before the big bang doesn't make sense though, because time only started when there was space, and all space started after the big bang). We don't know what the universe is expanding into.

If you analyse the statement "with intelligent creation, we must have an intelligent creator" you need to first prove that there is intelligent creation, assertion doesn't cut it. For intelligent design/creation to be a fact, you would need to prove that some feature of some organism cannot be created by natural means, and just as importantly, hasn't been created by natural means. Just saying "the human eye is so complex that it couldn't have arisen by natural means" isn't good enough, it has to be proven.

The problem that the ID'ers (Intelligent Designers) have, is that they are just asserting that all systems that currently exist in nature are too complex to have come about by chance, that's it, nothing more.
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Old 10th April 2014, 11:27 AM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

Ok what my friend exactly was talking about is not humen eye cuz u know they will give stupid reason of hiz suffering. He talked about the stars and universal perfection in matter and.

For the other claim is not the cause argument. It is the idea of science established that all kind of energy wasn't there , it had to start and it wil end . How? we say big-bang or not clear yet. Because i told him no there is dark matter from that energy came. I don't know if he was right or me?

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Old 10th April 2014, 11:55 AM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

The issue with the "finely tuned universe" is that again, they tend to wave their hands around and show that it's the case.

As an example, the strength of gravity and the power from stars needs to be balanced, so if gravity is too strong, then stars can't form properly as they are too dense, and if gravity is too weak then everytime they get hot enough to produce fusion, they'll just blow apart again. Therefore, it's finely tuned.

However, they only need to be in balance with each other, they can be different values from what we have in our universe, as long as they are able to be in balance. If one is too strong or weak, we have a problem, but if they were both stronger than what they are, then it still works, it's just that stars would be different sizes.

There are plenty of groups of numbers that exist in the universe, the ID'ers claim that if one of them is changed, then the whole system breaks are being dishonest. Think of it like this, the tyres fit on your car wheels because they are designed, if the tyres are too big or small then they either wont fit, or won't be able to be inflated. But what if you change the size of the wheel and the tyre together, they'll still fit. The reality is that even within these groups of numbers, you can change many of them, and still end up with a system that works.

To a certain extent, I think of the big bang as having seen someone just do a magic trick. The magician will insist that it's magic, but I know that there was some form of sleight of hand involved to perform the trick, just because I don't know what it was, or didn't see how it was done doesn't make it magic. Stating that it's magic doesn't make it magic. Me saying that I don't know how it was done doesn't mean that it was magic. Further, saying that it was magic doesn't tell us anything at all about the trick.
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Old 10th April 2014, 02:16 PM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

Is he possibly referring to the second law of thermodynamics?
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Old 21st April 2014, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

Physics: in the universe as we observe it the total sum of matter and energy is fixed, its known as a conservation law. Did the universe begin, and so all this matter and energy was suddenly there when before it wasn't? We have no answer for that. The big bang was not necessarily a beginning for existence from nothing, there are plenty of theories about the universe as existing before. There are even possibilities that what we see is "local" and beyond our observable limits in space/time is more universe that behaves differently.

Creation: There is nothing to say that anything was "created". The phrase "everything that begins has a creator" is unfounded. When a wind "begins" where is there a creator? When a wave in the oceans begins where is there a creator? The only things we know of in the entire cosmos that are created are man made things.
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Old 21st April 2014, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

Quote:
theman707 said View Post
i heared it is scientificly proven that all matters had a beginning and will have an end. I just wanted to confirm . Yes or no

only ME can judge me
Currently I'm not certain science has a concrete answer for that. Perhaps next time your friend asks that question - instead of saying yes or no, how about saying "If I say no - how does that prove that god did it?".

It's an old argument theists like to use, it's a logical fallacy called the "god of the gaps" which basically means when science hasn't got the answer to a question yet, theists spin that as some sort of proof that their god exists.

Theists who claim their god exists have the burden of proof, they need to prove that their god exists - it's not up to us to disprove god.
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