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  #1  
Old 4th May 2009, 10:24 PM
SomeThingsAreNothing SomeThingsAreNothing is offline
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Default I'd like to know from a believer...

  1. Did you analyse your chosen religion? Was it to the same extent as you did to all the other religions you decided were not correct?
  2. How did you decide which religion is the correct one beyond all doubt in your mind?
  3. What specific undeniable factor made your chosen religion so obviously necessary to live by, while the others were easily ignored or dismissed?

Have never heard an answer to this before, am quite interested to know how that selection worked.
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  #2  
Old 5th July 2009, 02:07 PM
Sir Patrick Crocodile Sir Patrick Crocodile is offline
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Default Re: I'd like to know from a believer...

Quote:
Stueee86 said View Post
  1. Did you analyse your chosen religion? Was it to the same extent as you did to all the other religions you decided were not correct?
  2. How did you decide which religion is the correct one beyond all doubt in your mind?
  3. What specific undeniable factor made your chosen religion so obviously necessary to live by, while the others were easily ignored or dismissed?

Have never heard an answer to this before, am quite interested to know how that selection worked.
I have been asking those questions since childhood to my parents - I knew something was fishy about religion.
  1. If your god(s) is so powerful then how come he lets bad things happen?*
  2. Where did your god(s) come from?
  3. If things are done among your god(s)'s will then why pray to him?

In addition - in the case of some religions such as Islam where the same prayer is repeated over and over again:
  1. What's the point praying if you are just going to repeat the same thing every time?!
  2. What exactly are you thanking your god(s) for?
  3. Isn't there an easier way?

And another thing for theists: while you're at it reading those religious books there are some great books out there whose characters have more morality and credibility than your religious books I reckon. Popular documentaries like The Three Little Pigs and Little Red Riding Hood and some movies such as Nosferatu etc - even Spongebob Squarepants!

Last edited by Sir Patrick Crocodile; 5th July 2009 at 02:31 PM.
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  #3  
Old 5th July 2009, 03:32 PM
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SchizoDeluxe SchizoDeluxe is offline
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Default Re: I'd like to know from a believer...

Most of the time it's the region they live in that dictates what religion they will follow, which in itself has the question the legitamacy of all of them.
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  #4  
Old 22nd April 2016, 06:01 PM
Blue Sapphire Blue Sapphire is offline
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Default Re: I'd like to know from a believer...

Quote:
Stueee86 said View Post
  1. Did you analyse your chosen religion? Was it to the same extent as you did to all the other religions you decided were not correct?
  2. How did you decide which religion is the correct one beyond all doubt in your mind?
  3. What specific undeniable factor made your chosen religion so obviously necessary to live by, while the others were easily ignored or dismissed?

Have never heard an answer to this before, am quite interested to know how that selection worked.
1. Good questions Stu.....ones that I believe we all should ask before we jump in. The question that I always had was, is their any purpose to life. If we live, work, save, procreate and enjoy life (hopefully) and then die, never to be seen again. Is that all there is too it.

It seems a valid question. For one I had no choice to whom I was born, where I was born and if I wanted to be born. No input whatsoever. Then I die one day with not a thing I can do to prevent it. So what was all that about. Questions that I would ask myself. So I set about looking for answers. Not so easy to find.

I asked the question, have we come from evolution or have we been created. The answer to that question seemed fairly easy to answer as there are so many holes in the theory of evolution, the chances of it occurring in precisely the way it has happened, are too great to imagine. In fact I would need more faith to believe in that idea as opposed to the idea that everything was created by a Creator.

Just look at DNA, multiple species only able to breed amongst themselves. Information having to be added to primitive cells for more complicated organisms. What controls gravity, how did the mind begin to have thoughts. The earth spins around the sun 1000 miles per hr, it then travels around the sun at 60,000 miles per hr. Our galaxy supposedly travels through the universe at 500,000 miles per hour. What controls that and that and that. I could go on for pages, but I am sure you get my drift.

So I reasoned if there was a Creator, why did He create. Just to let people die, no communication with His created beings. This too didn't make sense.

So I examined religions and what it is they believe in and why. So many of them and they all say they are right.

I delved into all sorts of religions and one day at 25yrs old I read a Christian magazine that said we are here for a purpose and that purpose is to become a better person, that is what we have been born with can be added to, for the betterment of ourselves and our fellow man.

It seemed logical and so I pursued to understand where it was they were coming from. This led me to the Bible and so I took it upon myself to study this book so that I could make an informed opinion.

I can say more but suffice to say this Book led me along a path that has enabled me to extend myself beyond the person I was born. I can love more than before, I have more joy then before, I have a hope I didn't have before, I have a belief that whatever happens in this world, there is more to come in another age.

In taking up this journey I have experienced many supernatural things that cannot be explained except there is a Being out there who is watching and who cares. This is my own personal experience, others may not agree, that is their journey. I am only answering your question, although a little late I see. I have been on this journey for some 29 years now and can honestly say through it all, I have been blessed beyond what I would have ever imagined.

There are people on this forum who would totally discredit what I have just said and not believe one word of it. I cant change that, but for those who wish to understand more as I did, I am willing to share more of my story with them. I am not here to promote my Christian beliefs. I am here as a person who sought to open his mind to ideas, so that early in my life I could set myself on the right track. What I found was a joy and a peace that I would wish others could share in.

Our time is short on this earth. Tomorrow is not a certainty. I have chosen to try and understand the deeper issues of life. That choice has so far been a most rewarding one.

Thank you for taking the time to read my story.
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  #5  
Old 22nd April 2016, 06:27 PM
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knowledge is power knowledge is power is offline
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Default Re: I'd like to know from a believer...

Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post

there is a Being out there who is watching and who cares.
I'm sorry,there is so much wrong with this post I will leave it to others to explain better.
However I will start with this^
Please show me how this god of yours cares 1 iota about this planet, when There is soooo much shit going on and extreme suffering.
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  #6  
Old 22nd April 2016, 06:36 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: I'd like to know from a believer...

Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post
...
Just to check that you realize you're responding to a post from 7 years ago?

The guy who posted this thread hasn't even been here for 2 years.


Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post
I asked the question, have we come from evolution or have we been created. The answer to that question seemed fairly easy to answer as there are so many holes in the theory of evolution, the chances of it occurring in precisely the way it has happened, are too great to imagine.
This suggests you need a remedial course in evolutionary biology.

Luckily for you, there are plenty of people here ready to provide you that education.

Tell me - where did you come by your knowledge of evolution? I think it unlikely it was from schooling - I expect it's slightly more likely from pop culture - but even more likely, particularly from the form of your response, it was from a religious outlet that told you it was full of problems but never pointed you to the actual science.

The chances of it occurring precisely the way it happened is 1, because it did happen that way. However, if you understand the contingent nature of time, history, biology etc., it could have happened other ways.



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Blue Sapphire said View Post
In fact I would need more faith to believe in that idea as opposed to the idea that everything was created by a Creator.
Utter nonsense. Evolution is directly observed both in the field and in the laboratory. We know the mechanisms, we can make valid predictions based on our knowledge. Evolution is a fact. You, for example, are a mixture of your father's and mother's DNA - that is the process of evolution and it's undeniable.


Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post
Just look at DNA,...
Yes, I have indeed. DNA shows numerous pieces of evidence to show that all life on this planet evolved, and that we all share a common origin. That's why we find the same genes in many different species.


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
... multiple species only able to breed amongst themselves.
Not really true, is it? Otherwise there'd be no such thing as hybrids:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_%28biology%29


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
Information having to be added to primitive cells for more complicated organisms.
This makes no sense at all. Please define 'information'.


Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post
What controls gravity,...
You need to expand on that - what controls the sun? what controls the wind? what controls electromagnetism?

Do you think there are no scientific answers to these? Or do you think it more likely that it's just that you don't know them?

This reminds of Bill O'Reilly's tide comes in, tide goes out - you can't explain that.

Actually, yes we can explain that, and unless you think you have absolute knowledge, the sum of all human inquiry, then you need to express some humility and simply say 'i don't know' rather than 'it's not true'.


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
how did the mind begin to have thoughts.
What exactly is a mind without thoughts? That's like saying when did heat become hot.


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
The earth spins around the sun 1000 miles per hr, it then travels around the sun at 60,000 miles per hr. Our galaxy supposedly travels through the universe at 500,000 miles per hour. What controls that and that and that.
Gravity and the conservation of angular momentum.

Tell us the truth, BS - is your lack of knowledge of physics and biology the real reason you believe in God, or is it that you started with the God belief and then couldn't be bothered to do any of that difficult learning stuff, so just dismiss it out of ignorance?


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
I could go on for pages, but I am sure you get my drift.
Sadly, I do. It's a god of the gaps, and it's a particular large gap you have in your knowledge.

That, however, can be remedied. I'm sure I am not the only one who will be more than happy to provide a remedial education. I'm on Biology, but there are others here who can deal with the physics confusions you have.


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
So I reasoned if there was a Creator, why did He create. Just to let people die, no communication with His created beings. This too didn't make sense.
Well, this raises another problem. Assuming you don't accept evolution as an explanation for the diversification of species, it's not like declaring God-did-it brings you any closer to an understanding.

If an intelligent being external to time and space crafted this entire universe, then its motives are way beyond you or me.


Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post
So I examined religions and what it is they believe in and why. So many of them and they all say they are right.
It's a mark of religion to declare divine truth while failing to address any of the contradictory evidence.

They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.


Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post
I delved into all sorts of religions and one day at 25yrs old I read a Christian magazine that said we are here for a purpose and that purpose is to become a better person, that is what we have been born with can be added to, for the betterment of ourselves and our fellow man.
And yet if you look at the Bible, no such message arises from it. So the Christian writing that article in a magazine was putting their own beliefs onto the cosmos.


Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post
It seemed logical...
No, there's nothing 'logical' there. What you mean is that it resonated for you, that it was a goal you thought worthy.


Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post
... and so I pursued to understand where it was they were coming from. This led me to the Bible and so I took it upon myself to study this book so that I could make an informed opinion.

Really, that's novel. Most people who read the Bible come away horrified at this vicious story of our ancient forebears.

Did the smashing in of babies' heads make you think that the message from this alleged creator was of loving your fellow man? Or was it the debauching of virgins?


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
I can say more but suffice to say this Book led me along a path that has enabled me to extend myself beyond the person I was born.
There are many such books - it's the wonder of literature. You could try a myriad of books, and the benefit a fair portion of them have would be that they're also factually true.


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
I can love more than before, I have more joy then before, I have a hope I didn't have before, I have a belief that whatever happens in this world, there is more to come in another age.
It's a false belief: a cosmic carrot. When you die, your body rots in the ground, breaking down into its constituent chemicals, before being taken up into plants or consumed by other organisms.

The notion that you live after death is not only a ridiculous one, but it's also horrifying - as Hitchen's put it, a North Korea you can never escape from.


Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post
In taking up this journey I have experienced many supernatural things that cannot be explained...
Or, in fact, can be explained but you don't want to accept those explanations.

It's no coincidence that these experiences happened to you after you bought into a spiritual belief system. Christians hear Yahweh, Hindus see Brahma, and new age hippies see beings from other planes of existence. Its a grand delusion.


Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post
... except there is a Being out there who is watching and who cares.
Nah, that's just a childish notion that doesn't stand to reason. If he cared, whence cometh evil?

A question that predates Christianity and still cannot be responded to. Even you will simply ignore it - like water off a duck's back.


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
This is my own personal experience, others may not agree, that is their journey. I am only answering your question, although a little late I see. I have been on this journey for some 29 years now and can honestly say through it all, I have been blessed beyond what I would have ever imagined.
Well, you could try imagining what your life would have been like if you hadn't genuflected to mythology, and actually rolled up your sleeves and gone out to help people affected by natural phenomena (which in your narrative must be caused or at least ignored by god) just because they are human, not because you wanted cosmic brownie points.

Imagine how you'd feel then.


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
There are people on this forum who would totally discredit what I have just said and not believe one word of it.
Oh, I believe you believe that, I just think it's patently nonsense.

Not least the science denial, but that we can fix. Believing in cosmic papas is a problem you're going to have to address alone.


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
I cant change that, but for those who wish to understand more as I did, I am willing to share more of my story with them.
Methinks it's the wrong forum. People who are routinely interested in such stories are your fellow cultists. Fellows from other cults, not so much.

As for us, we're an atheist foundation, so how you came to believe in childish notions isn't really that interesting - we were all children once.


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
I am not here to promote my Christian beliefs.
Which is lucky for you, because I understand it's quite painful for some to have their cherished notions torn apart.


Quote:
Blue Sapphire said View Post
I am here as a person who sought to open his mind to ideas, so that early in my life I could set myself on the right track. What I found was a joy and a peace that I would wish others could share in.
Open-mind =/= adhering to a Bronze Age death cult.


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Blue Sapphire said View Post
Our time is short on this earth. Tomorrow is not a certainty. I have chosen to try and understand the deeper issues of life. That choice has so far been a most rewarding one.
Please. You don't get to lament the brevity of life while you believe you're going to live forever in fantasy cloud castle land.
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  #7  
Old 22nd April 2016, 06:37 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: I'd like to know from a believer...

The water comes, let's see if it simply rolls of the duck's back:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
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  #8  
Old 22nd April 2016, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: I'd like to know from a believer...

Thank you for reviving this thread Blue Sapphire, unfortunately you appear to have tottaly failed to comprehend how evolution works. I suggest you do a proper study of the subject and you will see that your conclusions are quite frankly those of an uninformed victim of religious indoctrination.
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Old 22nd April 2016, 06:46 PM
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Default I'd like to know from a believer...

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Blue Sapphire said View Post
The answer to that question seemed fairly easy to answer as there are so many holes in the theory of evolution, the chances of it occurring in precisely the way it has happened, are too great to imagine.
We have had many threads on this particular topic. I suggest that you read my post here outlining the supporting evidence we have for evolution, I have included numerous links to educational sites and videos that can assist in furthering your understanding of the topic. Please do not make the mistake in assuming your lack of knowledge of a subject or the unanswered question in the field of Biology gives credit to the idea of Creationism.

Quote:
Just look at DNA, multiple species only able to breed amongst themselves. Information having to be added to primitive cells for more complicated organisms.
This can be accounted for via mutations and genetic drift. Genetics is a very interesting topic.

Quote:
What controls gravity, how did the mind begin to have thoughts. The earth spins around the sun 1000 miles per hr, it then travels around the sun at 60,000 miles per hr. Our galaxy supposedly travels through the universe at 500,000 miles per hour. What controls that and that and that. I could go on for pages, but I am sure you get my drift.
Gravity is a natural phenomenon and is the force that governs the motion of astronomical bodies - it is one of the weakest of the four fundamental interactions of nature. I wold suggest starting with reading up on General relativity and Newton's law of universal gravitation. When I say "force" in scientific terms, I mean any interaction that when unopposed, changes the motion of an object.

The argument you are displaying is called"Infinite Regress", it's a pretty common tactic for Creationist to use to discredit Evolution. Essentially it entails a person continually asking for justifications for explanations along the lines of "Well, who or what created this or that?". Somehow this argument always seems to stop at a god or goddess of some description.

Science may not have all the answers but neither does religion, the only difference is that science doesn't make up fairytales.
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Last edited by rayne; 23rd April 2016 at 12:02 PM.
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  #10  
Old 22nd April 2016, 06:53 PM
Blue Sapphire Blue Sapphire is offline
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Default Re: I'd like to know from a believer...

Quote:
knowledge is power said View Post
I'm sorry,there is so much wrong with this post I will leave it to others to explain better.
However I will start with this^
Please show me how this god of yours cares 1 iota about this planet, when There is soooo much shit going on and extreme suffering.
Hello knowledge....I understand your reasoning and I too would have thought the same around 30 years ago. Life changes us, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. It depends on how we choose to go about it.

You rightly ask if there is a caring God, why would He allow such suffering on this planet He created. I have searched the answers to this question for the last 30 years and am still searching as my knowledge of an Eternal Being is very limited. I mean what has He been doing for eternity. Why hasn't He got this stuff sorted out eons ago.

Even Christians struggle with logical answers to the questions. However in my searching I have gained some insight into what is going on in this cosmic realm. It is very limited but it gives me answers that even other Christians dont believe, even though it can be supported by the Bible.

It truly is an amazing story of humility verses pride, good verses evil, Christ verses satan. It has taken me years to sort through, but I can see some light at the end of the tunnel. It is truly an amazing story and if you wish for me to expand I will send you this info directly as I am not here to convert you to Christianity. I am just here to tell my story and ask this forum to cross examine my beliefs.
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