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Old 18th January 2017, 09:14 PM
Servetus Servetus is offline
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Default Evidence for God's existence

This thread is for the purpose of addressing some the questions raised regarding evidence of God's existence.

The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer. In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well. In 21st century English, the passage reads...

"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..." (Romans 1:19, 20).

Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.

Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting. And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.

So, let us reason a bit.

How would I liken the Creator? Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse. Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.

In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...." Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope? Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them? Sounds foolish, correct? That is the dilemma.

Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA. On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA? If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them? Much less be on par with them? And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.

And here is one item we all see without any understanding. Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created. And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God. And what is that? LIFE.

The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9 simply that the 'source of life is God'. Much has been hypothesized about life. Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature. Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life. But when pressed, they admit they can not and did not create life. It cannot be disassembled and reassembled. Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.

And there is God. If we go back to Romans 1:20 we see it speaks about the creation as giving us insight into God. So look at the creation. Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26. "To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One.

26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things?
It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name.
Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing."

Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose. Did you know we ourselves are star stuff? And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.

Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down. Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself. Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27. Makes for very interesting reading.

Oh. And DNA; Look at Psalm 139:16. "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed.' Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?

So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility.

But a few things I do know. The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists. It encourages us to build faith in God, not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.”

The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.

The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)

Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful. For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”

Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries. For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle (Isaiah 40:22) Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.

The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good? See Titus 1:6 Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?

So have I completely answered the questions posed? Probably not. However, at the same time, I hope that this is a good start and that I have raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.

You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.
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Old 18th January 2017, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: Evidence for God's existence

Please demonstrate this claim to be accurate.
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The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer.
Everything that you wrote after this is irrelevant until you can demonstrate this claim. Does it even mention Thor?
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Old 18th January 2017, 09:26 PM
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Default Re: Evidence for God's existence

How do you know the bible is remotely correct in what it says that you can, with veracity, use its content as a basis for extrapolating anything? Why this book and not any other religious book? Why not the Koran?

I also note that your interpretations of the bible are, well, just that and most of them can be readily pointed out to either be a) not what the bible says, because you've simply reworded them so as to make post-hoc claims regarding the knowledge of the authors or b) simply flatly wrong, when considered in the context of what the bible says.

Why is the bible so often an influence for bad rather than good? Because it contains some truly hateful shit that no one in modern society should stand for.

The bible endorses rape, the murder of innocents and slavery.

Not that it matters, because there is no reason to consider its content as factual or evidential of anything beyond it being the written works of ignorant goat-fuckers.
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Old 18th January 2017, 10:15 PM
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Azurisan21 Azurisan21 is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for God's existence

Servetus, hang on before you go on...

Did you not first investigate the context in which such biblical statements came into existence? That is, as you quoted from passages as such,

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Servetus said View Post
"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..." (Romans 1:19, 20).
who were even the Romans? What was that tagline and what conventions do you use to interpret the context behind these lines? Did you not investigate where that figure, '1:19' came from? Do you not understand that there is an element of intertextuality?

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Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.
Did you not think or ask what ifs, like what if this line was a lie? Could anyone say that as the original writer besides their imaginary angel even now somewhere in your area!!?? I sincerely surmise that you need to hone your skills in linguistics, as in the past, in previous editions of the testaments, the way editors use language could vary significantly, alongside grammatical conventions and semantics. Look up connotations. Be careful not to read them as denotations!

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Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting. And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.
Atheists could read the entire bible with similar or even more rigorous level of inquiry as preachers and well qualified priests'! Try not to generalise or presume that atheists are limited in their imagination and even vaguest thoughts... they simply reject it because of many other reasons as well which we can discuss separately.

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So, let us reason a bit.

How would I liken the Creator? Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse. Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.

In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.
Who is even Isaiah? Have you researched on this historical figure, if not mythical either?

Quote:
"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...." Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope? Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them? Sounds foolish, correct? That is the dilemma.
Do you not realise that it is even a possibility that such stupidest statements made by the least authentic ordinary human on Earth can earn such immortality and fame all of sudden for their absurdest speeches that inspire the humankind? Do you not even wonder that anyone can happen to be that lucky?

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Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA. On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA? If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them? Much less be on par with them? And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.
I think your sense of scale is far from depth... it's quite naive I'd say. You're confusing DNA out of proportions. Study DNA first to understand its intricacies before you can jump to conclusions. You need to tap your new avenue of 'organisational and abstract thinking', i.e. how scale can operate at different levels and how that is not always congruent across different systems.

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And here is one item we all see without any understanding. Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created. And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God. And what is that? LIFE.
Have you lost your mind? Think again... when were the biblical statements first written/scripted? When was research first conducted on genetics? Compare these two factors if you like on a historical timeline, and also investigate the circumstances that have given rise to different attitudes and mentalities, i.e. firm believers in the biblical legacy, and scientists.

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The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9 simply that the 'source of life is God'. Much has been hypothesized about life. Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature. Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life. But when pressed, they admit they can not and did not create life. It cannot be disassembled and reassembled. Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.
Could you care to find where the bible even mentions jargonic words like DNA, chemical and molecules?

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And there is God. If we go back to Romans 1:20 we see it speaks about the creation as giving us insight into God. So look at the creation. Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26. "To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One.
Who were the Holy One? Again, I just want to reinstate another very important consideration.

To whom did the biblical scriptors intend to address? Who were the intended audience? You need to think along those lines as well, just to tap your critical thinking though. Think about the time and places in which these statements came about.


Quote:
26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things?
It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name.
Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing."
Do you know exactly what is heaven like as can be inferred from the composer's intent, to be precise?

Quote:
Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose. Did you know we ourselves are star stuff? And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.

Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down. Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself. Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27. Makes for very interesting reading.
I wish time could be measured in its absolute sense, and then concretised/visualised so that the laypersons can grasp the nature of the universe better with least difficulties. Again, what was the exact context in which that psalm occurred?

Quote:
Oh. And DNA; Look at Psalm 139:16. "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed.' Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?
Do you even wonder or investigate what were the original sources before these editions and English translations? What about the Dead Sea Scrolls?

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So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility.
Do you not realise that your reasoning is largely based on this bible and not original to your own human nature... what makes a non-lowly human otherwise? To make human highly is to be able to think INDEPENDENTLY of wordings prescribed to them by some vague authorities, such as this biblical literature. Do you not realise that it is not always so that people acquire so called 'spiritual' or even extra-sensory 'powers/forces' based on reading scriptures or following religions? There are even many cases where such is felt and experienced without precedence from religious or scriptural influences whatsoever. Even scientists use imagination at their highest as much as the theists, followers and spiritual people even seem to possess, to feel, speculate and imagine inhabiting alternate realities as an integral part of scientific research - these scientists do so as isn't always in words or numbers or diagrams!

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But a few things I do know. The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists. It encourages us to build faith in God, not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.”
Why were you an atheist until then?

Quote:
The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.

The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)
Define what is orderly. List the attributes that constitute order.

Quote:
Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful. For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”
Do you not realise that there are many atheists who have far better imagination and sensibilities of what order might even be - way better than what exists in the natural universe. Again, you need to note that presuming that universe is in perfect order implies your lack of ability or failure to recognise that the universe is existentially chaotic first of all. That is what sets highly creative professionals apart from the rest - these creative people recognise that the world is ugly and with better imagination, they design something that is newly orderly and mind-blowing. Think about that. Then, however possible or not, such descriptions of the universal order as a creationism are too naive and simplistic examples of how wondrous and marvelous an order is where imaginable.

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Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries. For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle (Isaiah 40:22) Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.
Right... who were the bible writers exactly? On what evidence can you be sure that these angels were contacting those prophets and led the divine revelations?

Quote:
The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good? See Titus 1:6 Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?
You're putting yourself in an intellectual jeopardy! Do you even ask or are you ignorant that the world is still in adversity elsewhere?

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So have I completely answered the questions posed? Probably not. However, at the same time, I hope that this is a good start and that I have raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.

You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.
Very unsatisfactorily, indeed. Why? It's because we have many other ideas and challenging hypotheses such that what you might construe amongst our heads is just one small among many different possibilities - NOT that we lack such imagination or ability to comprehend beyond the senses nor inability to judge and prioritise/give hierarchy to which assumptions, theories and beliefs are true than others.
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Old 18th January 2017, 10:35 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: Evidence for God's existence

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Servetus said View Post
This thread is for the purpose of addressing some the questions raised regarding evidence of God's existence.
There is no evidence of God's existence, otherwise we'd all believe in God.


Quote:
Servetus said View Post
The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer.
No, its not - this is the trap that has snared so many fools throughout history.

The Bible is the claim of God's existence, so it can't also be the evidence of God's existence - this represents a gigantic example of circular reasoning and is consequently of no interest to anyone who thinks critically.


Quote:
Servetus said View Post
In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well. In 21st century English, the passage reads...

"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..." (Romans 1:19, 20).
Yes, it's doublespeak

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak

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Doublespeak is language that deliberately obscures, disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words.
Invisible qualities cannot be evident - that's a contradiction in terms as if they were evident, they'd not be invisible. This is angel-pin-head dancing bullshit.


Quote:
Servetus said View Post
Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.
In one paragraph you've gone from evidence to perception. Ergo the title and precis of this thread is defunct - you have demolished your own premise.


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Servetus said View Post
Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting. And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.
A stupid claim as most atheists are not scientists nor do they revere laboratories.


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Servetus said View Post
So, let us reason a bit.
Umm? With all respect, you've not shown any ability in this regard so far, and we've been reasoning all along, so do you mean you're going to join us in reasoning?


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Servetus said View Post
How would I liken the Creator? Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse. Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.
Straight to question-begging. If you're seeking to establish the existence of a quantity, you can't then ask people to imagine their way into its alleged mind because that necessitates accepting the existence quality which is what you're supposedly trying to evidence.


Quote:
Servetus said View Post
In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...." Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope? Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them? Sounds foolish, correct? That is the dilemma.
No, but grasshoppers don't have a brain anything like humans do, they have no capacity to reason, no capacity to review evidence, no capacity to explore their thoughts and plumb the evidence for reality.

Ergo, the analogy is false, and the funny thing is its false by your own doctrine that has humans set apart from grasshoppers and the like by them being made in the image of god.

Even were this line of argumentation reasonable, then you've undermined your own reason to believe. What if it's your perception that is faulty and the thing you perceive as god is not actually a god, but your limited mind can't even begin to process the reality.

See? This is the problem with apologetics - it never inspects its own presuppositional biases.




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Servetus said View Post
Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA.
We've gone from behavior to genes? Are you sure that you possess the requisite knowledge to engage in this endeavor?



Quote:
Servetus said View Post
On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA?
Oops, there you have unfortunately shown that you do not possess the requisite knowledge. There is no 'greater' part of genes, we are not genetically superior to chimpanzees. Chimpanzee DNA does exactly what it needs to do to make chimpanzees that work fine in their ecological niche. Human DNA does exactly what it needs to do to make humans that work fine in their cultural niche.

You've invoked the Great Chain of Being which is a religious concept, not a scientific one.


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Servetus said View Post
If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them?
Intellect is far from just a function of genes. It's predominantly cultural in the form of education. We learn from the mistakes of our forebears. Funnily, so do chimpanzees, albeit without books and writing to pass on the breadth of chimpanzee knowledge. Some whales, however, may well be able to do something like this through their complex speech.


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Servetus said View Post
Much less be on par with them? And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.
Firstly, you've invoked a great chain of being which is contrary to empirical reality, so the product of your argument can not be valid.

Secondly, you've undermined your own position because if your argument is true then you should have no knowledge of god, or essentially zero comprehension yet you think you can know its mind.

Thirdly, the distinction between a grasshopper and a human in this sense is one of mind, so it's hardly reasonable to use a grasshopper that has no capacity to reason, no capacity to engage in iterative thought modeling, no capacity to be aware of itself, then pretend that this is functionally equivalent to the difference between humans and the alleged god thing. We do have these capacities, so even if they're weak and flawed, they'd still furnish us with the ability to perceive this god, but we don't. The only people who do have been taught to perceive this god by their inherited cultural memes and consequently they see god everywhere in places we know no gods are required.

Ergo your argument is not valid, is self-contradictory, and is wrong.


Quote:
Servetus said View Post
And here is one item we all see without any understanding. Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created. And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God. And what is that? LIFE.
The reason it's not in the Bible is because the Bronze-Age pastoralists who came up with this notion originally had no concept of where life came from, so they imagined it was magicked into existence by a very human-like projection of themselves onto the cosmos.


Quote:
Servetus said View Post
The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9 simply that the 'source of life is God'. Much has been hypothesized about life. Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature. Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life. But when pressed, they admit they can not and did not create life. It cannot be disassembled and reassembled. Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.

What a shame it must be to be so outdated in your thinking!

http://www.nature.com/news/minimal-c...c-life-1.19633

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Genomics entrepreneur Craig Venter has created a synthetic cell that contains the smallest genome of any known, independent organism. Functioning with 473 genes, the cell is a milestone in his team’s 20-year quest to reduce life to its bare essentials and, by extension, to design life from scratch.
Bear in mind that we've only been doing this for a century, and we're already able to create synthetic life, so your confidence in this regard is misplaced.

Not that it matters a jot anyway - you see, I've engaged with people functionally identical to you before. If people can't create life, you say that God is a requirement to making life. If people can create life, you say that it shows that life requires an intelligent creator. Thus, your position can never be defeated by contradiction and thus is a non-position, a begged question.



Quote:
Servetus said View Post
And there is God.


This thread is about you providing evidence for the existence of god, and you assert that there is a god?

Well, that's convincing!

Incidentally, there's a huge problem in trying to assert that god exists - it's a contradiction, an example of the apologetic nature of the methodology. To say something's name is to say it exists inherently, so then trying to add a predicate of 'exist' to it is tautological, and thus suggests that what you are doing is not logical but suppositional. Existence is not a predicate.


Quote:
Servetus said View Post
If we go back to Romans 1:20 we see it speaks about the creation as giving us insight into God. So look at the creation. Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26. "To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One.
I'll raise your quote with another Christian....

Quote:
Augustine said
Usually, even a heathen knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.”
Here's the problem for you Servetus:

When you base your provably erroneous ideas about biology, physics or philosophy on the foundation of your belief, when you are shown wrong it reflects on your religion as much as it reflects on your ability to reason.

Further, as I mentioned in the other thread, this is not a forum for you to preach at us. We are continually bombarded by your silly little make-believe in the real world, many of us were Christians and have been subjected to endless Christian bigotry and harassment, so when you make an argument here, make it of your own reasoning, do not rely on scripture to make your points for you. As I already mentioned, many of us know the Bible all too well and, as such, there's little reason for you to repeat bits of it when you could be typing out your own ideas - if we want to know what the Bible says, we can read it ourselves, thanks all the same.



Quote:
Servetus said View Post
Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose.
No, this is factually false. You are making an assertion you cannot hope to support. Science doesn't recognize these purpose notions - again, it's a theological concept and has a capital P at the beginning.


Quote:
Servetus said View Post
Did you know we ourselves are star stuff? And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc

There are literally hundreds of trillions of stars that have not made a single heavy element that has ever existed in a human being or any life on this planet, ergo your reasoning is contrived.


Quote:
Servetus said View Post
Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down. Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself. Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27. Makes for very interesting reading.


That truly is such a weedy proposition, Servetus. You've extrapolated the word 'perish' to mean the potential for the heat-death of the universe!

If you want to see some much more interesting ancient philosophy on this concept - probably the origin of these ideas within Jewish culture - you need to look into the Hindu scriptures which talk about vast ages of time that your Jewish ideological predecessors failed to understand.


***cont***
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Old 18th January 2017, 10:36 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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***cont***


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Servetus said View Post
Oh. And DNA; Look at Psalm 139:16. "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed.' Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?


Oh Servetus, that's so embarrassing for you. It's also a very common argument used by Muslims to claim their book was dictated by their version of your god.

How do I explain what? What is there to explain?

It's gobbledygook.

I guess you're talking about the 'embryo' which, of course, wasn't the word originally written, but which in the original language would translate to something like 'unformed body'.

So how do i explain that these ancient humans knew of babies being in the womb? Well, it's overwhelmingly simple and I wonder whether I should explain it to you or whether i should prod you to work it out for yourself.... hmmm?

Ok, I will explain. You see, when those vicious Bronze-Age tribespeople who had these stupid ideas in the first place went to attack other villages, they'd also kill the women:

1 Samuel 15:3

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

Judges 21:10-11

10 So the congregation sent out there twelve thousand of their most valiant men, and commanded them, saying, "Go and strike the inhabitants of Jabesh Gilead with the edge of the sword, including the women and children. 11 And this is the thing that you shall do: You shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman who has known a man intimately."

Thus, when you push your spear or sword into a person, they tend to split open. Now, as unpleasant as it may be, imagine what happens if you push your sword or spear into the stomach area of a woman who is pregnant. What do you imagine you see there?

Incidentally, when you read your Bible, do you just ignore bits like this which show the vicious barbarism of the people who came up with your 'holy' idea in the first place? Doesn't it trouble you at all?



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Servetus said View Post
So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility.
Thanks! That's what I've been telling theists for years! All these centuries of supposition when you've just acknowledged that theists have absolutely bugger all reason to make the claims they do!



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Servetus said View Post
But a few things I do know.
Of couuuurrrrsssee you doooo.


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Servetus said View Post
The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists.
No, this is a repeated mistake on your part. The Bible is the claim that god exists, therefore it cannot be the evidence too - this amounts to nothing more than circular reasoning.

Please provide actual evidence that your god exists.


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Servetus said View Post
It encourages us to build faith in God, not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.”
It also tells you to blindly believe religious assertions, such as believing that the Bible is the word of god.



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Servetus said View Post
The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.
Nope, it points to the existence of a universe which contains life. If the universe didn't contain life, then you wouldn't be here pontificating about it.


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Servetus said View Post
The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)
Yep, it's Paley's watchmaker, with all the same flaws in reasoning. Did God create poo? Did God create earthquakes? Did God create leukemia in children? Did God create pain, suffering, and evil? If you can find a single thing that you know wasn't created, then you've disproven your own contention, or you have to admit that god created evil!

We've been doing this a long time, Servetus, whereas you seem to only have spoken to fellow-believers before.


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Servetus said View Post
Although this logic is simple,...
Simplistic, rather.


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Servetus said View Post
many well-educated people find it to be powerful.
Appeal to authority and a tried and tested form of argument made by theists who love their authority figures. Cue list of scientists who believe in your god, right?


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Servetus said View Post
For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”
Yep, nailed it!

I don't care what Sandage said - his claim was not related to his expertise, so it doesn't matter that he was an astronomer as this claim was religious not scientific.

As an astronomer, he should have known better that the predominant 'organizing principle' is gravity.


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Servetus said View Post
Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries.
Absolute bullshit. Science is a 17th-18th century invention, not the scrabblings of bronze-age pastoralists projecting humanity onto the cosmos.


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Servetus said View Post
For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox.
Please source your assertion. Please also note that Terry Pratchett is not a valid source with respect to this claim.


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Servetus said View Post
In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7)
Yes, the Earth isn't suspended, ergo not scientific.


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Servetus said View Post
Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle (Isaiah 40:22)
No, it doesn't which is probably why you didn't cite it and instead pretended it says 'sphere' or 'globe' when it actually says 'circle' which is a 2 dimensional shape with no similarity to globes.

Again, this is a common argument among Muslim apologists, and the same counters work just as well:

Isiah 11:12

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Those 'four corners' of a circular sphere!

Matthew 4:8


Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them

Not possible on a globe.

Of course, there are a dozen other verses from both the OT and NT showing that the writers of the Bible throughout the ages were highly confused about this elementary detail of the shape of the Earth discovered and recorded by such peoples as the ancient Greeks. Therefore Hellenism, right?



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Servetus said View Post
Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.
Then these 'many' people also need to work out how there are so many factual errors in the Bible and how God managed to fail so heavily with respect to the facts of his alleged creation.

Clearly, this is false because there is no element of factual reality in the Bible that wasn't already present and known about in the ancient world across different cultures and religions, thus you should consider it evidence for their beliefs, right?

Of course you don't because your belief is not contingent on any of these things which is why the Gish Gallup of this post is a shell game where you can always retreat and still maintain your belief. Not one thing you've said in this thread is basal to your beliefs, so it's a kind of deception.

Also, still no evidence.



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Servetus said View Post
The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism.
Horse dung.

The Bible offers many ridiculous or morally depraved answers which is why Christianity has been a force of horror and depravity in this world. Remember, there was a period in Europe of complete Christian dominance, and what happened? Oh yeah, they burned witches, killed heretics, force-converted the pagans, warred endlessly between themselves and their Muslim brethren.



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Servetus said View Post
For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good? See Titus 1:6 Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?
No, it's reason, critical thinking, and a passion for honesty and truth that lead me to stop believing in the shallow bullshit of the Bible.

For example, you've tried to address the problem of evil by citing a passage that has absolutely fuck all to do with addressing it.

This is a great example for me as it's this that first led me to question the validity of Christian teaching. Christians and other religious adherents want to believe, so when they are given trite little passages like the above, they assume they have to work to understand it because it's necessarily right and has some form of universal application, whereas it's got nothing to do with the question at all.

The problem of evil is actually concerned with the existence of evil, of the possibility of evil, in a universe created by an all-good God who declared 'His' work good.


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Servetus said View Post
So have I completely answered the questions posed? Probably not. However, at the same time, I hope that this is a good start and that I have raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.
Honest, open-minded individuals have already addressed these questions, which is why they're no longer Christians.

You haven't answered the questions posed because the question posed was specifically concerned with evidence for the existence of God - you haven't provided any evidence at all, you've made arguments and assertions.

Please think for a moment here Servetus. If I had made the exact same arguments for the existence of another god, would you have found them convincing? I would imagine not. So perhaps you can then start to think of ways that you might be convinced by the existence of another god independent to your own one, and see if you can then apply those ideas to arguments convincing us. If you can think of not one argument that would convince you to believe in another god, then you've probably actually resolved the situation - it's not going to happen.

What we actually want is evidence. Do we need to run through what the word means?


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Servetus said View Post
You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.
No disrespect good sir, but of the three all that you've used so far is the Bible.
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Old 18th January 2017, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: Evidence for God's existence

If there is a god then why all the mystery? Just reveal youself and remove all doubt. Oh yes I suppose this is some sort of test blah blah blah. Please, come back with some real evidence! !! So sick and tired of this bullshit.
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Old 18th January 2017, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: Evidence for God's existence

So there really is a boy wizard who went to a special school and defeated an evil megalomaniac?

I knew it. It wouldn't be written down in a book if it wasn't true right?
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Old 18th January 2017, 11:08 PM
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Default Re: Evidence for God's existence

As my esteemed colleague has pretty much dealt with all of this, I'll only interject with two comments and two links to previous writings.

First, on why there is something rather than nothing, an astronomer should have known better. We already have an answer to this question. It's called Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

http://reciprocity-giving-something-...certainty.html

Second, on the idea that the bible constitutes evidence for god, exactly the opposite is true. It constitutes evidence against your god, and that's setting aside that, as Spearthrower has said, it can't be simultaneously the claim and the evidence.

http://reciprocity-giving-something-...this-book.html

You probably won't read either of those posts but, if you do, and you only read one, I'd prefer that you read the latter, especially if you plan to continue quoting the bible at us. As my good friend has said, we've all read it (I own 6 versions of it myself). That second post is all about why quoting the bible at critical thinkers isn't a good approach, and absorbing and understanding it will make your time here much more pleasant.

Finally, your attempts to find correlations between the bible and what science says commits one of the most pernicious and egregious fallacies in the apologist's arsenal, that of affirming the consequent.



I hope you'll go and address the demolitions of your Yadayadayada post, as there were some good responses there.
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Old 18th January 2017, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: Evidence for God's existence

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Servetus said View Post
This thread is for the purpose of addressing some the questions raised regarding evidence of God's existence.
Oh joy!

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The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer.
To which question?

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In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well. In 21st century English, the passage reads...

"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them.  For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..." (Romans 1:19, 20).
This is just Paul pulling out the argument of "things exist, therefore god". He's also enough of an arsehole to include - which you elided - the claim that people who reject this argument do so because they're evil, and God is going to fuck them up for it.

It's in no wise remotely convincing to anyone who doesn't already believe in the god in question. It's not an argument that supports the existence of YHVH, it's an argument that believers use to bolster their sense of belonging to a righteous club. It's Paul saying to the congregation in Rome, "HEy, we know we're right and all those other motherfuckers are heathen scum who YHVH is gonna kick them in the knackers for it, right?"

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Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.
Thus?

I'm sorry, but "thus"?

It doesn't remotely follow from that quoted extract - which you haven't provided the slightest support for - that perception... anything. This is not how argumentation works. First, you supply premise or three, then you support those premises, and only once you've supported the fucking things do you get to "thus".

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Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting. And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.
You know what? I'm gonna go ahead and say no, that's fucking stupid. Because it is trivially simple to demonstrate that any proposed version of YHVH is utterly incompatible with the universe as we know it to be, just as it is trivially simple to demonstrate that the Bible is repeatedly inconsistent in the ways in which it describes and defines said deity.

The fact that we can have labs and do science demonstrates that YHVH cannot possibly exist. If miracles worked, technology would be very very different to how it is.

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So, let us reason a bit.
I suspect we're going to be rationalising rather than reasoning, but sure. Let's see how this pans out.

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How would I liken the Creator? Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse. Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.
Why? There's no reason to think that you're even capable of comprehending such a point of view, and in fact your holy text explicitly says so on several occasions. No man can know the mind of God, right? Pretty fucking arrogant to pretend that you can, in fact, know that mind. Dangerously close to blasphemy, in fact. And remember, these aren't my fucking rules. They allegedly come down from your sky-daddy. I'm just trying to keep shit consistent.

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In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.

"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...." Isaiah 40:22

Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope? Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them? Sounds foolish, correct? That is the dilemma.
This, too, is just another iteration of "stuff exists, therefore YHVH". It's rhetorical effluent. It doesn't even begin to examine in any intellectually rigorous way the question of what YHVH's point of view could possibly look like. It's utterly refusing to answer the question of the ramifications of such a being existing. As an explanation, it's on intellectual par with "Because I fucking said so."

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Further on this line of thought
It's cute that you called it thought. I mean, when I tell an ex that I'm thinking about them, they know full well that I'm masturbating, so I see where you're coming from. It's cute. Stupid and wrong, but cute.

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is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA. On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA?
Greater?

Define greater.

Because that fucking sentence right there demonstrates that you don't seem to grasp the basics of how DNA DNA's. Like, we're not 'greater' than chimps. Go fucking challenge one to fisticuffs, and get back to me once your arms and face have been stitched back on.

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If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them? Much less be on par with them? And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.
Define intellect.

And once again, you're just making bald, unsupported assertions. You haven't even fucking defined your god in anything like a rigorous fashion yet, and yet here you are making ludicrous claims that he is 'orders of magnitude greater'.

You do realise that a claim about orders of magnitude requires measurement and quantification, yes? So you've measured the ineffable then? Have we then measured it, and established whether it might not be effed after all?

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And here is one item we all see without any understanding. Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created. And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God. And what is that? LIFE.
Define life.

Some of the best minds have given it a red-hot crack, and for my money the best version goes something like: there's not actually any one thing that defines life. Life is an emergent phenomenon that mostly exists as a category in our human understanding, but like many categorical understandings of similar type has fuzzy edges rather than actual boundaries - but all of those ingredients that make up life seem in no way to be supernatural in origin or effect. So you're operating on a profoundly outdated notion of 'life'. Maybe read a modern biology text rather than a collection of antiquated myths sometime.

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The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9 simply that the 'source of life is God'.
Yeah, the Bible also tells us that you can perform genetic modification by having animals fuck near piles of sticks, that pi is 3, and that bats are birds, and a host of other fucking idiotic fuckwittery. As a source of scientific knowledge, it's a little lacking.

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Much has been hypothesized about life.
Yep. Some of it even by people with a decent education or even science degrees. Some of it, admittedly, by people who couldn't find their arsehole with both hands and a GPS. Guess which ones are more likely to be worth listening to on the subject?

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Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature.
Oh, I see. You think 'life' is magic.

It isn't. 'Life' is a category we lump various chemical phenomena into, but it doesn't really have a particularly rigorous definition because that shit is fucking complicated.

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Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life. But when pressed, they admit they can not and did not create life. It cannot be disassembled and reassembled.
Citations fucking needed. I was about 9 when I was taught how to slaughter and butcher a sheep. Three minutes after I cut that animal's throat and sever its spine, and a day later after I've cut the fucker up into chops and roasts, I've fucking disassembled life pretty effectively. There's nothing fucking magical about it.

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Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.
Yep. And some have speculated that Harry Potter and Darth Vader were lovers responsible for the assassination of JFK in a bid to prevent the Zombie Apocalypse.

But some people are frankly full of shit and not to be taken seriously.

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And there is God.
No, there really probably isn't.

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If we go back to Romans 1:20 we see it speaks about the creation as giving us insight into God. So look at the creation. Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26. "To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One.
Look, quoting scripture isn't remotely the same thing as supporting a fucking argument. It isn't really remotely similar to providing a citation. I'm sure you can find remedial classes on Youtube about this shit.

And we fucking do look at this alleged creation, and see no evidence for a creator. We find abundant evidence for emergent phenomena and for the processes - massively parallel processes - that lead to such phenomena, but at no point is a creator god (let alone YHVH) even within cooee of being a reasonable or logical explanation.

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26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things?
It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name.
Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing."
Actually, we name the things. And it might be a little more convincing if one of the things that should be there was missing, but shit kept working anyway.

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Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose. Did you know we ourselves are star stuff? And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.
You seem unfamiliar with how probability works. Stars don't have purposes, and science doesn't 'admit' any such thing. The fact that we know how elements are formed isn't an argument in support of your creator god. It's evidence in support of natural processes.

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Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down. Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself. Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27. Makes for very interesting reading.
It says no such fucking thing.

Quote:
Oh. And DNA; Look at Psalm 139:16. "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed.' Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?
A slice of fucking nonsense composed by someone who may have been passingly familiar with miscarriages.

Look, here's the thing: Omnipotent, omniscient master of the universe and creator of everything. Knows literally everything.

Now, we know for a fact that it takes roughly roughly 20 to 30 years to go from utterly ignorant baby to, say, expert orthopedic surgeon or nuclear engineer or competent fucking author. And yet your god not only found it too difficult to educate people on germ theory or anaesthesia or intelligent narrative construction (pro-tip: Moses can't report on his own fucking funeral) but he's also apparently insufficiently competent to instruct you how to formulate and present anything resembling a compelling argument.

The fact that this dross is the best you can present doesn't give me confidence in your alleged creator.

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So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility.
And yet the irony is that your entire attempt at supporting the notion of such a being's existence is an exercise in precisely that.

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But a few things I do know. The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists.
No, it doesn't. It provides a loose collection of moronic and barbaric assertions and no evidence for anything beyond that humans have a tendency to be arsehats to each other.

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It encourages us to build faith in God, not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.”
No, it tells people to stick their heads up their arses and just accept blind assertions as fact because otherwise God will fucking torture them.

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The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.
No it fucking doesn't. It's exactly the opposite. If we existed despite the fact that there was no order, that would be potential evidence for a divine and sustaining creator. In other words, if magic worked, then maybe god. That order exists sufficient for airplanes to work how they do points in the exact opposite direction.

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The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)
Yeah, you know what? Fuck the Bible. I've read it several times, and have a copy sitting next to me right now, and it's shit.

Make some fucking arguments. Stop fucking preaching.

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Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful.
Yeah, but not only is that not actual logic, not all that many modern well-educated people - especially if they've made time to examine fields like epistemology and the like - will find it remotely compelling.

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For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”
Oooh. You're taking reasonstobelieve's line.

I can't be arsed to explore Sandage and this quote-mine right now. Fuck it, it may even not be out of context. I'll check into it later.

But I will point out that someone else who is smart and even well-educated believing something is not a compelling argument for me believing it too.

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Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries.
No, they really didn't. They had different, similarly ludicrous ideas.

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For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7)
That's not scientific knowledge. Scientific knowledge would have at bare minimum included detailed description of a heliocentric system governed by gravitational physics the like of which I managed to grasp when I was fucking ten years old.

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Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle (Isaiah 40:22) Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.
No, it calls it a circle. In other areas, the Bible describes the world as having corners. It doesn't describe it as a sphere, much less an oblate spheroid, and every successful ocean-navigating culture ever has known that the fucking planet was roughly spherical.

The fucking Babylonians knew that shit.

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The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good? See Titus 1:6 Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?
Right, I'm done for now. There's only so much bullshit I can deal with in one sitting.
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