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  #11  
Old 4th June 2016, 12:17 PM
SmithS SmithS is offline
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Default Re: Media Release: Rather than "Speaking Up", Try Listening

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Xeno said View Post
Knowing from past experience that my own tendency to deal with matters in detail can lead to interminable quotes and counter-quotes, I shall highlight only one thing. If you believe you said anything else I should consider significant, please advance it again, although tergiversation needs no repetition.

How have they done that other than lip service?

Why do you consider it a good that people might remain with a church which denies their known lives? Repeat, as an asserted atheist of no religious background.

Why do you apparently consider it a good that more people could be enticed to join such a church?

Why does the catholic church particularly raise your ire as you say, pray tell?
No need to rely on a word like 'tergiversation' when humble 'evasion' will do nicely, Xeno, something which I've striven to avoid throughout. You've obviously also decided to try a new tack.

The repeated questioning of my personal dislike of the Catholic Church irritates a bit, mere distraction from the matter in hand and, judging from your previous post --- one seemingly lacking both debating integrity and goodwill --- largely aimed at gathering fuel for further slander. Not that I think it's really any of your concern, but my particular dislike mostly relates to my long-standing interest in the historical development of the Christian faith itself, together with the nature of Church conduct ever since.

"How have they done that other than lip service?" you ask. I can only assume that you're referring to some presumed lifting by the Church of the restrictions on its women and LGBTIQ members. Again, you seem to have completely missed my drift!

The AFA is using the cited restrictions, as well as the child abuse issue, as ammunition in its attack against the Church. Surely it must be obvious that removal thereof will automatically result in more more women and LGBTIQ people remaining with their church, whilst tempting others, including those as might previously not have considered doing so, in joining up?

An outcome hardly favourable to the atheist cause, or AFA objectives!

Or even to the folk in question if we accept AFA assurances that "the worship of supernatural beings amounts to a useless waste of time, energy and resources, infantile concepts hindering the full potential development of humans".

And utterly disconnected from what I personally happen to think about people remaining with, or being enticed to join a church.
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  #12  
Old 4th June 2016, 12:38 PM
SmithS SmithS is offline
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wearestardust said View Post
SmithS, perhaps you could assist us by stating what your point is, in a pithy manner? There's a lot of commentary there but it is difficult to tease out what it is you are trying to say.

In a pithy manner, wearestardust?

I think the AFA media release is partly dishonest, partly counter-productive, partly less than rational; and if it was found necessary to issue any response at all, could have been handled in far more profitable manner (relative to AFA objectives and the cause of Australian atheists more generally).
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  #13  
Old 4th June 2016, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: Media Release: Rather than "Speaking Up", Try Listening

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wearestardust said View Post
SmithS, perhaps you could assist us by stating what your point is, in a pithy manner? There's a lot of commentary there but it is difficult to tease out what it is you are trying to say.




In a pithy manner, wearestardust?



I think the AFA media release is partly dishonest, partly counter-productive, partly less than rational; and if it was found necessary to issue any response at all, could have been handled in far more profitable manner (relative to AFA objectives and the cause of Australian atheists more generally).


So an 'atheist' has an issue with the Atheist Foundation of Australia issuing a public response to the Catholic churches stated aim to have more influence in our political system?
Very strange. I could understand a catholic coming here to have a go, but an atheist who thinks an organisation like the AFA should not be providing an opinion when a religious organisation telegraphs it intention to increase its already disproportionate influence in public policy???

Oh, and if you think you have been 'slandered' report the offending post and it will be reviewed, otherwise, drop the drama.


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  #14  
Old 4th June 2016, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: Media Release: Rather than "Speaking Up", Try Listening

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Is it not self-evident that if the Church did indeed decide to do the 'right thing', as promoted by the AFA, removed this unfair 'repression', became altogether more welcoming, congenial and attractive to both of these groups, that more women and LGBTIQ folk would not only remain with their church, but that others would also be enticed to join, over and above what might otherwise have been the case?
How have they done that other than lip service?
"How have they done that other than lip service?" you ask. I can only assume that you're referring to some presumed lifting by the Church of the restrictions on its women and LGBTIQ members. Again, you seem to have completely missed my drift!
No Xeno did not miss your drift. You start the proposal with "Is it not self-evident that if the Church did indeed decide to do the 'right thing'...." and Xeno has followed up with a question that amounts to, in my words, in what way has the church decided to "do the 'right thing'" aside from make a self aggrandizing public statement?

And you did not respond to the following questions:
Quote:
Why do you consider it a good that people might remain with a church which denies their known lives? Repeat, as an asserted atheist of no religious background.

Why do you apparently consider it a good that more people could be enticed to join such a church?
Quote:
The AFA is using the cited restrictions, as well as the child abuse issue, as ammunition in its attack against the Church.
In this thread the AFA has not "attacked the church", they have poured scorn on a self serving pronouncement by the church.

Quote:
Surely it must be obvious that removal thereof will automatically result in more more women and LGBTIQ people remaining with their church, whilst tempting others, including those as might previously not have considered doing so, in joining up?
a) removing their intolerances is a good thing, much to be desired
b)if they remove those abusive attitudes who cares if people join with them?

Quote:
An outcome hardly favourable to the atheist cause, or AFA objectives!
a) what atheist cause are you talking about? Its a lack of belief, what 'cause' can that engender?
b) What AFA objectives require stopping people from joining a religion?

Quote:
Or even to the folk in question if we accept AFA assurances that "the worship of supernatural beings amounts to a useless waste of time, energy and resources, infantile concepts hindering the full potential development of humans".
You have misquoted the AFA web page here in a deliberate attempt to mischaracterise what was said.

Link to page: http://atheistfoundation.org.au/about-us/

Full quote (I have added bold to the statements you extracted.
Quote:
We live in a natural universe with known natural laws. Religion, based on belief in the existence of the supernatural, is dependent on the indoctrination of infants generation after generation, by parents brainwashed in religious cultures.
The confrontations and fighting today provide ample evidence of the unstable nature of societies, which endorse religious beliefs.
Infantile concepts seriously hinder the full potential development of humans in a world with problems that require logical thought.
Atheists find their motive for action in the needs and problems of their fellow citizens and consider that the worship of, or reliance on, imaginary supernatural beings to be a useless waste of time, energy and resources.
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  #15  
Old 4th June 2016, 04:43 PM
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wearestardust wearestardust is offline
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Default Re: Media Release: Rather than "Speaking Up", Try Listening

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In a pithy manner, wearestardust?

I think the AFA media release is partly dishonest, partly counter-productive, partly less than rational; and if it was found necessary to issue any response at all, could have been handled in far more profitable manner (relative to AFA objectives and the cause of Australian atheists more generally).
Thank you. That's clear.

So how was it dishonest, and how was it not rational?
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  #16  
Old 4th June 2016, 04:46 PM
SmithS SmithS is offline
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Azurisan21 said View Post
What are the reasons you dislike the Church? How do their sentiments strike you as timely and not at all unreasonable? What their sentiments are you really talking about? Are they putting their sentiments forward with 'voiceless and thrown-away people'? Church has been doing that for so long - people who don't realise the dark side of religious institutions often assume that the religious institutions are very humanistic and benevolent
I appreciate various of your observations and that you obviously devoted a fair amount of time in compiling your post, Azurisan. Please pardon me both for not quoting all of it and for lacking the time to fully do it justice.

The election campaign, to date anyway, seems largely dominated by economic issues (for the past week superannuation changes and taxation led the way I think). I would have thought that within that context the bishops' call that the concerns of mostly neglected marginal groups not be overlooked quite reasonable, and timely. You only need to read their media statement to see what these sentiments are.

I wrote that the bishops request that the plight of society's unfortunates not be overlooked was construed by the AFA as an instance of the Church appropriating the 'causes of marginalised peoples', although the AFA closed its own media release with the identical plea.

My point was simply that despite the AFA similarly appropriating the concerns of marginal groups in order to advance its own cause, apart from rather peevishly scoring cheap brownie points against the Church by invoking child abuse and LGBTIQ issues --- within an electioneering context where they seem barely relevant, and with the first currently subject to a Royal Commission --- it nevertheless sees fit to accuse the Church of ulterior motives. You don't agree there's a bit of a double standard at work here?

By sex-obsessed culture I had our own Western in mind.

The Internet contains plenty of research, both scholarly and less so, attesting to the devout's better health, happiness, longevity etc.

The reasons why I think the AFA's website comments about religion are largely simplistic nonsense are many and diverse, and unrelated to any particular faith's internal irrationality or absurdity. You've probably also heard it said that humans are psychologically hard-wired for religion. I doubt it need be religious in the way generally understood but if we somehow managed to sweep away all religion overnight, other feel-good, identity bolstering suspicions would quickly sprout in its place. Anyway, to do proper justice to this topic here would take me the rest of the day!

I asked whether "we really wish to continue stunting the growth of these fine Australians?" I meant women and LGBTIQ Australians.

My definition of 'germane'?!

The last I heard, the marriage equality issue is to be settled by a conscience vote on the part of the main parties --- I don't think I'll hold my breath.
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Old 4th June 2016, 05:08 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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The last I heard, the marriage equality issue is to be settled by a conscience vote on the part of the main parties --- I don't think I'll hold my breath.
The Labor Party has stated an intention to put it to a conscience vote if they win the election.

The Liberal Party have said they will go the plebiscite route if they win the election.

Both parties are filled with politicians. While there maybe good and honest car salesmen I suspect despite having never met one they are more prolific than good and honest politicians. There are a few politicians I think do a good job to the best of their abilities but it takes more than a few good men to make a good government.

Even though the Liberal party stated they will hold a pushed plebiscite, which is non-binding remember, some Liberal politicians have stated their determination to vote against it even if the plebiscite says yes, I suspect this isn't something they really want to happen or it would be a proper referendum, not a plebiscite.

Even though the Labor Party has put out media releases saying they will put it to the vote come successful election I always will keep in mind what a non-core promise is, it's a lie said to get you elected.

We will see, I certainly won't be disappointed, mainly because I have such low expectation of most of our elected representatives.
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Old 4th June 2016, 05:14 PM
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SmithS said View Post
No need to rely on a word like 'tergiversation' when humble 'evasion' will do nicely, Xeno, something which I've striven to avoid throughout. You've obviously also decided to try a new tack.
I selected tergiversation because it includes within its definition equivocation and conflicting statements, as well as evasion. My view that you are making statements which are ambiguous or apparently in conflict with a nominal position of atheism and of considering the catholic church particularly worthy of ire suggests to me that it is apt.

Meanwhile, I should in fairness to both of us go back to a couple of comments you made earlier and which I blithely ignored at the time.
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Involvement subsidised by non-supporting taxpayers beyond the actual services provided, and run to evangelise to the vulnerable and also to withhold otherwise accepted medical services.
You'd of course hardly utter false claims, and so I look forward to seeing you substantiate your assertions about church welfare and health services being "subsidised by non-supporting taxpayers beyond the actual services provided", etc.
We may have a semantic problem between your words and mine, not to mention your evasion of the latter two clauses in my sentence. The church is tax-subsidised and profits thereby, this much is inarguable. Therefore anything in which they are involved is tax-subsidised unless they keep wholly clean and isolated sets of accounts with precise inputs and outputs related solely to all and only charitable and educational activities, with no crossover whatsoever from any other activities or no withholding of untaxed monies from educational and charitable activities. If they did, then we would easily be able to remove tax subsidies for anything else, would we not? This is something you would want to do, stop tax-subsidising whibble, is it not?

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SmithS said
The ongoing ad hominem is starting to get tiresome.
If I have argued ad hominem, please quote the specific passage(s) for my rectification, or report them to a moderator.
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Old 4th June 2016, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: Media Release: Rather than "Speaking Up", Try Listening

SmithS, to quote George Bernard Shaw (it is from "Androcles and the Lion", the interwebz tell me).
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The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life.
You agree, do you not, or are you hankering for theism, or that others retain absurd beliefs without any significant contrary position?
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Old 4th June 2016, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Media Release: Rather than "Speaking Up", Try Listening

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SmithS said View Post
My point was simply that despite the AFA similarly appropriating the concerns of marginal groups in order to advance its own cause, apart from rather peevishly scoring cheap brownie points against the Church by invoking child abuse and LGBTIQ issues --- within an electioneering context where they seem barely relevant, and with the first currently subject to a Royal Commission --- it nevertheless sees fit to accuse the Church of ulterior motives. You don't agree there's a bit of a double standard at work here?
What the actual fuck?

You claim to identify as an atheist - yet you think the churchs abhorrent record on child sex abuse and its hateful stance on LGBTIQ issues are not relevant when they tell us they are going to try to influence policy in this country?

Wow. Invoking 'cheap brownie points'. So cheap to attack the credentials of an organisation that seeks to have a say in social policy. Remarkable.
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