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  #61  
Old 15th June 2017, 09:48 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

You know I have always wondered when people start speaking like this (no not you Azu, I am back to the "Make Britain Great Again" bit), and that is, which bit of the past do they consider great? Was it the bit where India was invaded and ruled for many years, or the bit where they shipped women and children off to a distant land for stealing a bit of bread cos they were starving?

See it doesn't matter which bit of the great I go back to, there was always some shit to go along with it. Even the bits where a lot of people would agree there was greatness, such the Battle of Britain where men died for freedom and liberty and the right to, well do lots of things, there was some awful shit going on, such as shoving children on ships and sending them to a distant land, putting them in the care of a group pedophiles and bullies making them believe they were orphans. Some people would argue it was done with good intentions, but ask the kids, the ones who survived, what they thought of it!

Until someone actually articulates exactly which bit of the great they are talking about the actual people have no idea if it's great according to themselves or someone else, they might get all the shit bits and someone else get all the great bits.

I guess what I am articulating here is, the past is never as great as peoples memories if it. If people actually had good memories, or indeed did a bit of historical research they would run a mile when people start speaking like that!
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  #62  
Old 15th June 2017, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

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stevebrooks said View Post
You know I have always wondered when people start speaking like this (no not you Azu, I am back to the "Make Britain Great Again" bit), and that is, which bit of the past do they consider great? Was it the bit where India was invaded and ruled for many years, or the bit where they shipped women and children off to a distant land for stealing a bit of bread cos they were starving?

See it doesn't matter which bit of the great I go back to, there was always some shit to go along with it. Even the bits where a lot of people would agree there was greatness, such the Battle of Britain where men died for freedom and liberty and the right to, well do lots of things, there was some awful shit going on, such as shoving children on ships and sending them to a distant land, putting them in the care of a group pedophiles and bullies making them believe they were orphans. Some people would argue it was done with good intentions, but ask the kids, the ones who survived, what they thought of it!

Until someone actually articulates exactly which bit of the great they are talking about the actual people have no idea if it's great according to themselves or someone else, they might get all the shit bits and someone else get all the great bits.

I guess what I am articulating here is, the past is never as great as peoples memories if it. If people actually had good memories, or indeed did a bit of historical research they would run a mile when people start speaking like that!
I was being trolled by someone who was a patron of Protestantism and who kept patronising towards me to consider being 'grateful' to the British Empire for what they did historically to India: "British Empire gave India the gifts and legacy of English language and the art of civility and how to grow civilised in their image."

Then I was told by some Indians that the British traders were fraudulent in claiming silk and steel industries as their own when they were importing supplies from India - I'm not sure if that is true but anyway...

Well, the legacy of British Empire such as English language and its internationalisation did good for some reasons but I've been told by others that British Empire committed horrible atrocities to Indians.

There of course were historic facts elsewhere that the British imperialists were very atrocious with Aborigines, right? (TIMB, no offense but my sincerest apologies if deemed inappropriate)

A know a lot of my British friends who are proud patrons and back up the idea of British heritage.

After all, each is to their own.
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  #63  
Old 16th June 2017, 03:59 AM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

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Azurisan21 said View Post
I was being trolled by someone who was a patron of Protestantism and who kept patronising towards me to consider being 'grateful' to the British Empire for what they did historically to India: "British Empire gave India the gifts and legacy of English language and the art of civility and how to grow civilised in their image."

Then I was told by some Indians that the British traders were fraudulent in claiming silk and steel industries as their own when they were importing supplies from India - I'm not sure if that is true but anyway...

Well, the legacy of British Empire such as English language and its internationalisation did good for some reasons but I've been told by others that British Empire committed horrible atrocities to Indians.

There of course were historic facts elsewhere that the British imperialists were very atrocious with Aborigines, right? (TIMB, no offense but my sincerest apologies if deemed inappropriate)

A know a lot of my British friends who are proud patrons and back up the idea of British heritage.

After all, each is to their own.
There were many well established existing civilisations on the African continent prior to the arrival of Europeans, all that's left is ruins. Also I wouldn't say that the British Raj was good for India, but there is a chance that it was better than one of the possible alternatives, just read the history of the Spanish in South America.

Who knows what we have missed out on by walking roughshod over peoples not able to defend themselves against guns and cannons but I bet Africa would have been better off without us showing up when we did.
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  #64  
Old 16th June 2017, 08:10 AM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

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stevebrooks said View Post
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Azurisan21 said View Post
I was being trolled by someone who was a patron of Protestantism and who kept patronising towards me to consider being 'grateful' to the British Empire for what they did historically to India: "British Empire gave India the gifts and legacy of English language and the art of civility and how to grow civilised in their image."

Then I was told by some Indians that the British traders were fraudulent in claiming silk and steel industries as their own when they were importing supplies from India - I'm not sure if that is true but anyway...

Well, the legacy of British Empire such as English language and its internationalisation did good for some reasons but I've been told by others that British Empire committed horrible atrocities to Indians.

There of course were historic facts elsewhere that the British imperialists were very atrocious with Aborigines, right? (TIMB, no offense but my sincerest apologies if deemed inappropriate)

A know a lot of my British friends who are proud patrons and back up the idea of British heritage.

After all, each is to their own.
There were many well established existing civilisations on the African continent prior to the arrival of Europeans, all that's left is ruins. Also I wouldn't say that the British Raj was good for India, but there is a chance that it was better than one of the possible alternatives, just read the history of the Spanish in South America.

Who knows what we have missed out on by walking roughshod over peoples not able to defend themselves against guns and cannons but I bet Africa would have been better off without us showing up when we did.
And of course ditto for Australia
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  #65  
Old 16th June 2017, 10:05 AM
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Some white imperialist or another would've gotten Australia. There can be no disputing that.

The idea that the original people were uncivilised, primitive, or miserable, and that the white invasion did them a favour: now that is disputable.

At this point, I put in a plug for two books by historian David Hunt: Girt and True Girt. Real Australian history is a bitter sort of pill, and it's probably better swallowed with a bit of wry humour.
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  #66  
Old 16th June 2017, 01:08 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Some white imperialist or another would've gotten Australia. There can be no disputing that.
There's no doubt there, Europeans of the time regarded any group not Christian and like them as savages with no rights. Some nations ruled invaded areas with relative benignity (for the time that is, not what we would now call benign) that could eventually see the land returning to it's original owners, some such as the Spanish destroyed whatever was there and installed their own population. The native population in much of South America is still marginalised and discriminated against in most countries.

I consider it questionable whether there would be any native Australians still alive in some circumstances and from some invaders. It would be extremely offensive to say, "they were lucky it was us" but is it to say, "they were lucky it wasn't X." But that unfortunately does imply the former to some degree, so best not to say it at all.
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  #67  
Old 16th June 2017, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

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stevebrooks said View Post
There's no doubt there, Europeans of the time regarded any group not Christian and like them as savages with no rights. Some nations ruled invaded areas with relative benignity (for the time that is, not what we would now call benign) that could eventually see the land returning to it's original owners, some such as the Spanish destroyed whatever was there and installed their own population. The native population in much of South America is still marginalised and discriminated against in most countries.

I consider it questionable whether there would be any native Australians still alive in some circumstances and from some invaders. It would be extremely offensive to say, "they were lucky it was us" but is it to say, "they were lucky it wasn't X." But that unfortunately does imply the former to some degree, so best not to say it at all.
Well, European Empire-building was a thing Europe did for several centuries, and of course, caused an enormous amount of harm in the colonies, and also at home [European wars of the period were mostly about disputes among Europeans over treasure from the colonies].

That said, there were reformers in Europe trying to make their case heard. Mainly intellectuals and various sects within religions, especially the Quakers.

It certainly seems like colonialism varied depending on where it was practised. From the "merely" exploitative to the outright brutal. This seems to vary over time and depending on what Imperial power was doing at the time. There does not seem like a consistent pattern, IMHO. Some of the most benign, and the most brutal, were British. I don't know enough detail on other nations colonies to make much comment. particularly since most histories are quite critical of the behaviour of other nations while being apologist for their own.
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  #68  
Old 17th June 2017, 03:56 PM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

I missed this one - Wow!:

‘She’s a liar, liar’: anti-Theresa May song heads to top of charts

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A protest song that repeatedly accuses Theresa May of lying and mocks her claims for strong and stable leadership is heading to the top of the charts, days after it was released and a week before the general election.

Liar Liar was released last Friday as a remix of a reggae song by Captain Ska, a six-piece anti-austerity band. It already tops Amazon’s listing for songs downloaded in Britain and the iTunes UK chart, despite receiving no airplay from radio stations because of impartiality guidelines.

The song is seventh in the official singles chart and is expected to go higher when the chart is updated on Friday. Campaigners from the People’s Assembly are planning to protest outside Broadcasting House on Friday during Radio 1’s chart show to demand that the BBC play the song.

...
It appears that the song ultimately peaked at No. 4 in the official chart, which is extraordinary given its political content and the absence of any airplay whatsoever on any conventional radio stations.

It's further evidence of the mood of the youth of the UK and the declining power of conventional media.

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Last edited by Blue Lightning; 17th June 2017 at 04:02 PM.
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  #69  
Old 17th June 2017, 04:19 PM
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Nice song, I wonder if they would do a remix for the Donald and Malcolm when the time comes?
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  #70  
Old 25th June 2017, 04:14 PM
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This was too funny not to share.



Huw Parkinson does some great work. See the rest of it here.
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