Go Back   AFA Forums > Secularism and Social Issues > Family Matters

Family Matters Family Matters... Parenting, partners, the rellies... if it's family, it's here

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 19th May 2017, 12:44 AM
DanDare's Avatar
DanDare DanDare is offline
Religion or Reality, choose...
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 7,324
Default Once more - RI in schools

I want to lay this out fairly clearly.

Schools teach the basics that allow kids to be citizens with essential skills.
Public schools accept kids of all backgrounds and should not foster an environment where special interest groups can "get at" the kids.
Religious instruction is not a necessary function of public schools and the organisations that provide it have an expressed interest in getting at kids they would not otherwise have access to.
RI classes have specifically set out to get kids to evangelise kids who are not going to RI.
Many of the evangelist kids have become that way under the radar of their parents, who do not know what goes on in RI.

Now read this: Can kids tell other kids about Jesus at school?
__________________
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
-Thomas Jefferson

Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 19th May 2017, 04:32 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,665
Default Re: Once more - RI in schools

Quote:
DanDare said View Post
I want to lay this out fairly clearly.

Schools teach the basics that allow kids to be citizens with essential skills.
Public schools accept kids of all backgrounds and should not foster an environment where special interest groups can "get at" the kids.
Religious instruction is not a necessary function of public schools and the organisations that provide it have an expressed interest in getting at kids they would not otherwise have access to.
RI classes have specifically set out to get kids to evangelise kids who are not going to RI.
Many of the evangelist kids have become that way under the radar of their parents, who do not know what goes on in RI.

Now read this: Can kids tell other kids about Jesus at school?

I had a look, maybe I would have found it serious if his other posts hadn't been so laughable, I quote;


Quote:
We need to be clear about this: the fact that the resurrection of Jesus actually, literally happened in the Middle East about 2000 years ago, is vital if Christianity is to be taken seriously. Christianity may or may not have a set of moral principles that make living in society more pleasant- but if the Bible is taken seriously, the moral principles are not at the centre of the Christian faith. Christianity stands or falls on a set of events said to have occurred at a specific time, in a specific place.

Quote:
I am fully persuaded, by this evidence, that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead in the 1st century;

https://lawandreligionaustralia.blog...tion-of-jesus/


He links to another blog, also his own, to prove the point;


Quote:
How does that relate to “Law and Religion”? Because our legal system has at its heart the law of evidence which assists judges to work out “what happened back then?” I have written a paper which analyses the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus using the techniques used by courts to assess the validity of testimony in court cases today in Australia. I encourage you to download and have a read, or pass it on to others.


I am fully persuaded, by this evidence, that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead in the 1st century; and that fact was the turning point of history. If you haven’t made up your mind about this yet, or even if you decided long ago without really looking into it as an adult, I invite you to read and consider carefully.

https://lawandreligionaustralia.blog...a-legal-angle/


He is convinced, because legal opinion in courts in Australia would deem the evidence sufficient to support the conclusion, that a man did indeed rise from the dead. To him this is irrefutable evidence that jesus rose from the dead, not just he recently deceased AKA heart attack and resuscitation but dead for three days dead, the smelly dead type of dead. Not only that, he considers this powerful enough evidence to convince unbelievers;


Quote:
I trust and pray that those who see Christianity as a mere “fable” or fiction might find here some reasons to reconsider the powerful evidence.

While he may be;


Quote:
I am an evangelical Christian, an Associate Professor in law, a father and a grandfather. I have qualifications in both law and theology and teach “Law and Religion” as an elective to later year law students.

I can't possibly consider his legal opinion unbiased or even sane based on his blog which seems to be one giant self-referential circle jerk about jesus and the resurrection. Law, while important to society, cannot possibly deal with reality in the same way it deals with social issues, making a legal decision to change the way the universe works isn't a valid way to apply law. People don't rise from the dead because a court of law says they did. I can't see this being taken seriously by anyone!
__________________
From the mouth of a seven year old: "When you're you're dead, you don't go anywhere!"
Reply With Quote
Like MarkFL, DanDare liked this post
  #3  
Old 19th May 2017, 04:43 PM
MarkFL's Avatar
MarkFL MarkFL is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: St. Augustine, FL., U.S.
Posts: 67
Default Re: Once more - RI in schools

Yes, nothing new, laughable as always...without the ages old circular jerk, what does the theist have?

They can cite letters of education to fool the uninitiated, but without a good argument they have naught but dogma, which a reasonable person should find embarrassing.
__________________
Living in the pools, They soon forget about the sea...— Rush, "Natural Science" (1980)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 19th May 2017, 04:51 PM
wolty's Avatar
wolty wolty is offline
Not a 'Westy'.
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 23,831
Default Re: Once more - RI in schools

He wouldn't last two seconds in the state school system.
__________________
.
.
.


The Nizkor Project- Logical Fallacies

Atheist: n; A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 19th May 2017, 07:27 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,665
Default Re: Once more - RI in schools

Quote:
DanDare said View Post
I want to lay this out fairly clearly.

Schools teach the basics that allow kids to be citizens with essential skills.
Public schools accept kids of all backgrounds and should not foster an environment where special interest groups can "get at" the kids.
Religious instruction is not a necessary function of public schools and the organisations that provide it have an expressed interest in getting at kids they would not otherwise have access to.
RI classes have specifically set out to get kids to evangelise kids who are not going to RI.
Many of the evangelist kids have become that way under the radar of their parents, who do not know what goes on in RI.

Now read this: Can kids tell other kids about Jesus at school?

Now just to clarify on what the legal numpty said in his claim that no-one can tell children they can't evangelise to other children at school, this may even be strictly legally correct, except for one exception that I will get to later. If we are talking strictly legal it's all wound up in the one issue. That is, we don't strictly apply adult laws to children because they aren't developed enough to understand the legal and social ramification of what our laws mean, we therefore have rules that we apply to children that wouldn't necessarily be legally applicable to adults and in fact may, as he says, be illegal.


It boils down to this, if we apply the law strictly, then the one person who can tell the evangelising child to shut the fuck up is the child being evangelised to, if they still continue it becomes harassment and there follows restraining orders and all that sort of unpleasantness. So while the legal numpty may be strictly correct that the education dept. can't ban children evangelising to other children in school, I don't know for sure I am not a lawyer, it's done because children are not socially developed enough to understand the rules that this guy is saying they are allowed to follow.


It's done not just to protect the child being evangelised to, but to protect the children who are being told they can't evangelise.
__________________
From the mouth of a seven year old: "When you're you're dead, you don't go anywhere!"
Reply With Quote
Like DanDare liked this post
  #6  
Old 19th May 2017, 07:59 PM
Loki's Avatar
Loki Loki is offline
You get what everyone gets....you get a lifetime
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Up the creek
Posts: 10,892
Default Re: Once more - RI in schools

Good luck to the kid who evangelizes Spawn.

Spawn is vaccinated though, it'll be the real littlies they are aiming at.
__________________
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."Philip K. Dick

Reply With Quote
Like DanDare liked this post
Laugh at Azurisan21 laughed at this post
  #7  
Old 19th May 2017, 08:01 PM
Azurisan21's Avatar
Azurisan21 Azurisan21 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,303
Default Re: Once more - RI in schools

Creepy as hell.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Like DanDare liked this post
  #8  
Old 20th May 2017, 02:13 PM
DanDare's Avatar
DanDare DanDare is offline
Religion or Reality, choose...
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 7,324
Default Re: Once more - RI in schools

And in the other direction a submission by FIRIS to the Parliamentary Inquiry into the status of the human right to freedom of religion or belief in relation to religious instruction in public schools. (they have a different take on free speech by children).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B93...1QdS1pQjQ/view

Quote:
The first section of this submission considers the rights of parents and caregivers to educate their children in accordance with their religion or belief. The assertion that parents/caregivers have the right to have their children educated in their religious persuasion within New South Wales Government schools is challenged. This challenge is made in the context of the international precedent established by the Canadian province of Québec’s decision to remove denominational religious instruction from public schools and to implement a mandatory neutral and objective Ethics and Religious Culture program.
The second section considers the rights of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion within New South Wales Government schools.

Given the fundamental right of all to freedom of thought, and to participate freely in the cultural life of their communities, this submission also affirms the right of all, particularly the child, to philosophy and to philosophise. The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) has identified the fundamental importance of the teaching and practice of philosophy in addressing world problems through dialogue, analysis and questioning of contemporary society, and fostering critical reflection and independent thinking.3 The creation within Australian schools of spaces where children can express their opinion democratically will foster an understanding that with freedom of expression comes a duty to argue rationally.4 This submission also supports UNESCO’s position that, based on research in the fields of developmental cognitive and social psychology, and in the language and education sciences, it is possible for children to engage in philosophy from a very young age, and that this is strongly desirable for educational, philosophical, and ethical reasons.5

Following consideration of the ways in which respect for human rights and opportunities to engage in ethical, creative and critical thinking are present in the general capabilities of the F-10 curriculum FIRIS recommends the inclusion of philosophy as a key learning area across all stages of the Australian Curriculum as a major component of a program, similar to Québec’s Philosophy and Religious Cultures program, mandatory for all schools. In doing so, Australia will fulfil its ethical obligations as outlined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to
Quote:
strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance [UDHR Preamble]
__________________
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
-Thomas Jefferson

Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25th June 2017, 11:55 AM
tjarm69's Avatar
tjarm69 tjarm69 is offline
I don't know. I don't know what is going to happen.
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 940
Default Re: Once more - RI in schools

The RI is a debacle to say the least about it in a somewhat polite way, but I'm not going to be polite about it. It's like placing kids in a bath of fecal matter and saying "you smell nice". The school has the bath, it must be OK.

It's religion, what could go wrong!!!

This blogger reports that the faith of religion must be the freedom of religion and be able to teach. But this is exactly the problem, which his biased brain can't understand, as he really (imo) voids. Religious children are indoctrinated (...that word- indoctrinated, he seemingly had no trouble completely avoiding).

You have adults in classrooms (someone that goes by the name 'minister' appointed who is to be assigned as 'teachers' to these classrooms) teaching children that the bible is what, true? It's non negotiable in this setting, isvit not? Parents ticked yes, Principle ticked yes! The environment the students enter into, is yes as the adhere to what teachers are teaching. It is not a debate setting, is it? Unless raised to do so. Raised questions from students (if they have any that actually are answered) are being answered as what exactly? And how does a child reason without informed discussions about religion anyway? A subject that is a practice of what another person believes, as fact? It is based on personal belief. This is something a child figures out? How does a child get to know facts from fiction, when the bible is being taught and ushered into classrooms, into an atmosphere of education?

The baths are filled with excrement from those who think that shit doesn't stink, and trying to get others (especially children) to deny their senses of smell.

We need to remove the bath! Religion Instruction is negotiable and parents need to know about the content of the religion that their children are being exposed to. It's not education. It's indoctrination. The title itself is self identifying, as you could imagine if we prelaced the word religion with sex. 'Sex Instruction' (SI). But I guess religion has a free pass!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Yesterday, 09:47 PM
The Irreverent Mr Black's Avatar
The Irreverent Mr Black The Irreverent Mr Black is offline
"Tiny be as tiny do" - Zappa
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Toontown
Posts: 1,788
Default Re: Once more - RI in schools

Quote:
DanDare said View Post
I want to lay this out fairly clearly.

Schools teach the basics that allow kids to be citizens with essential skills.
Public schools accept kids of all backgrounds and should not foster an environment where special interest groups can "get at" the kids.
Religious instruction is not a necessary function of public schools and the organisations that provide it have an expressed interest in getting at kids they would not otherwise have access to.
RI classes have specifically set out to get kids to evangelise kids who are not going to RI.
Many of the evangelist kids have become that way under the radar of their parents, who do not know what goes on in RI.

Now read this: Can kids tell other kids about Jesus at school?
And onward, to Fairfax:

Quote:
An unholy row has broken out over religious instruction in Queensland schools.

Education Minister Kate Jones released a statement on Thursday insisting there was no change to religious instruction policies.

A review of the GodSpace religious instruction materials, completed in March 2017, said RI instructors should be reminded that students "should not be encouraged to evangelise to other students at the school".

"The department expects schools to take appropriate action if aware that students participating in RI are evangelising to students who do not participate in their RI class, given this could adversely affect the school's ability to provide a safe, supportive and inclusive environment for all students," it reads.

The Australian reported Christian groups were alarmed by an "unofficial policy" to ban references to Jesus in the primary school yard.

But Ms Jones said nobody was telling a child what they could and could not say in the playground.

"The policy in place in Queensland state schools today is exactly the same as the policy in place under the former Newman government and has been the same for more than 20 years," she said.

"We are an inclusive education system that aims to provide a good education for all students of all faiths.

"Our government made it very clear last year that we support religious instruction in schools where the parents and school community decide they want that for their children."

Last August, the government said it would adopt all seven recommendations from a review of the Connect religious instruction materials, with changes including a new process for the department to review RI programs to ensure they comply with legislation.

There was also a new form created for parents which more explicitly asked whether they wanted their child to participate in RI.

The Education Queensland review came after Windsor State School principal Matthew Keong wrote to parents to announce he had suspended religious instruction at his school after finding it may entreat children to the Christian faith.

Queensland Parents for Secular State Schools described the recommendation in the GodSpace review as the Education Department "simply [telling] religious instruction volunteers not to incite children to evangelise their friends".

Liberal National Party MP Fiona Simpson accused Ms Jones of giving in to the "anti-God police".
More at link
__________________

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. -- Plato

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 09:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.