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Old 12th March 2018, 02:59 PM
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Kapyong Kapyong is offline
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Post Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus

Gday all,

Considering the popularity of the historicity of Jesus question lately, and the great interest members here have in objectively considering all the evidence - I'm sure you'll be interested in this rated list of early writers who could have mentioned Jesus but didn't, as part of the background knowledge for the question.

Remsberg / Remsburg started it, many others have copied him, even expanded it to 147 in one recent case (Michael Paulkavich, No Meek Messiah.)

Their lists suffered from having no dates or details, so I've analysed and rated each writer to help make sense of the data.

The writers are rated (in two levels) according to characteristics which would increase the likelyhood of a mention of Jesus Christ :
  • the book has a relevant Subject (S or s)
  • the book is Contemporary (C or c)
  • the work is Local (L or l)
  • the book is Big with lots of names etc. (B or b)
  • the book is a Christian work (X)
The writers are divided into one-third century chunks.
There are 94 in total.

A small number of Christian works are included because of their very surprising silence about Jesus Christ.

Writers Contemporary With The Alleged Jesus

Philo (20 BCE - 50 CE) = SClB

Philo Judaeus wrote very many books about Jewish religion and history, and would surely have mentioned Jesus Christ or Christians had he known of them.
  • Philo was contemporary with Jesus and Paul,
  • he visited Jerusalem and had family there,
  • he developed the concept of the Logos and the Holy Spirit,
  • he was considered a Christian by some later Christians,
  • he wrote a great deal about related times and peoples and issues,
  • including critical commentary on Pilate.
Seneca The Younger (4 BCE - 65 CE) = sCB

Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote many philosophic and satirical books and letters in Rome. He wrote a great deal on many subjects and mentioned many people. He was a Stoic, a school of thought considered sympathetic to Christian teachings. He wrote a large work On Superstition between 40 and 62 CE that covered all the sects and cults of Rome. In fact, early Christians seemed to have expected him to discuss Christianity - they forged letters between him and Paul. How else to explain these forgeries, except as Christian responses to a surprising void in Seneca's writings ?

Pliny The Elder (23 - 79) = SCB

Gaius Plinius Secundus wrote a large Natural History in Rome c.70CE following on from Bassus (from 31 CE) Pliny wrote a great deal - his Natural History mentions hundreds of people, major & minor - writers, leaders, poets, artists - often with as much reason as mentioning Jesus. (Of course like many other writers he talks about astronomy too, but never mentions the Star of Bethlehem or the darkness.) It is quite likely for this prolific writer to have mentioned Jesus or the Gospels events - if they had happened.

Petronius (c. 27 - 66) = CB

Gaius Petronius Arbiter or Titus Petronius wrote a large novel in Rome (a bawdy drama) the Satyricon c.60. Petronius mentions all sorts of people and events in this large work, including :
  • a crucifixion !
  • a scene where guards are posted to stop a corpse being stolen,
  • a tomb scene of someone mistaking a person for a supernatural vision,
  • gods such as Bacchus and Ceres,
  • writers such as Sophocles and Euripides and Epicurus,
  • books such as the Illiad,
  • Romans such as Cato and Pompey,
  • people such as Hannibal, and the Governor of Ephesus,
  • female charioteers, slaves, merchants, Arabs, lawyers
  • baths, shipwrecks, meals...
This large work, cover many topics, including topics related to the Jesus e.g. a crucifixion, and it was written just as Peter and Paul had come to Rome, allegedly.

Lucius Junius Moderatus Columella (4 - c.70) = Cb

Columella wrote several works in Rome, some survives, e.g. his large book on agriculture Res Rustica.

Mid 1st C. (34 - 66)

Persius (34 - 62) = scb
Aulus Persius Flaccus wrote six fairly long satires in Rome in the mid 1st century, of a rather philosophic nature.

Lucan (39 - 65) = cB
Marcus Annaeus Lucanus wrote the Pharsalia (Civil War) in Rome in mid 1st century. In this large poem he mentions some events from later times, and he covers many different issues and people in passing. He :
  • mentions an event from 56 CE,
  • refers to places as far afield as Sicily and Kent,
  • referred to Stoic religious beliefs about the end of the world, refers to many books and myths and persons and events not part of the main story.
Pomponius Mela (c.43) = c
He wrote a geography which includes the region.

Cornutus (c.60) = sc
Lucius Annaeus Cornutus wrote a variety of works in Rome - satires, philosophy, mythology. Some survive.

Hero of Alexandria (c.10 - c.70) = ClB
Hero(n) of Alexandria wrote many technical works, including astronomy in mid 1st C.

Quintus Curtus Rufus (mid 1st C.) = CB
Roman Rufus wrote a large history of Alexander, most still extant.

Scribonius Largus (mid 1st C.) = Cb
Wrote on medicine in Rome, much survives.

Rufus of Ephesus (mid 1st C.) = CLB
He wrote many works, mostly on medicine, much survives.

Cleopatra the Physician (mid 1st C.) = Cl
Some of her work survives.

Asconius Pedianus (mid 1st C.) = C
A Roman who wrote a variety of books, some survives.

Late 1st C. (67 - 99)

Plutarch (c. 46 CE - 120 CE) = ScB
Plutarch of Chaeronea wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia in about 90-120.
  • Plutarch wrote about influential Roman figures, including some contemporary to Jesus,
  • Plutarch wrote on oracles (prophesies),
  • Plutarch wrote on moral, spiritual and religious issues.
Justus of Tiberias (late 1st C.) = ScL
Justus of Tiberias wrote a History of Jewish Leaders in Galilee in late 1st century. Photius read Justus in the 8th century and noted that he did not mention anything: "He (Justus of Tiberias) makes not one mention of Jesus, of what happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did."

Juvenal (late 1st C. - early 2nd C.) = scb
Decimus Junius Juvenalis wrote sixteen satires in Rome in early 2nd century without mentioning Jesus or Christians, even though later Roman satirists like Lucian did ridicule Christians (as gullible, easily lead fools) in mid 2nd century.

Pliny the Younger (61 - c.113) = sclB
Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus was a prolific Roman author on many subjects.

Damis (mid 1st C. - early 2nd C.) = Sclb
Damis apparently wrote most of what we know about Apollonius of Tyana who was a philosopher and mystic exactly contemporary with Jesus, and who was rather similar to Jesus - enough for some authors to argue they were one and the same person. If Damis / Apollonius had known of Jesus, he could have easily have been mentioned as a competitor.

Martial (40 - c.103) = scB
Marcus Valerius Martialus wrote satires in Rome in late 1st century - a large body of poems about all sorts of things. He mentions many people, places, stories and issues - major and minor, within and without Rome, such as :
  • Stoic suffering of discomfort and death,
  • virgin's blood,
  • Roman funerary practices,
  • the way accused men look in court,
  • Roman soldiers mocking their leaders,
  • anointing the body with oil,
  • Molorchus the good shepherd,
  • Tutilius a minor rhetorician, Nestor the wise,
  • the (ugly) Temple of Jupiter,
Quintilian (c.35 - c.100) = scb
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, wrote the Education of an Orator in Rome in late 1st century. One of the things Jesus was allegedly noted for was his public speeches - e.g. the Sermon on the Mount, which supposedly drew and influenced large crowds.

Josephus (c.75-99) = scLb
Josephus wrote a large work The Jewish War about the war with the Romans, and the Antiquities of the Jews about Jewish history.

Erotianus (1st C.) = c
A Greek grammarian and/or physician, some of his work survives.

Aristocles (1st C.) = sc
Aristocles of Messene wrote On Philosophy, late 1st century.

Musonius Rufus (1st C.) = sc
C. Musonius Rufus' views on Stoic philosophy in Rome were collected in mid 1st century, some survive.

Nicomachus of Gerasa (1st C.) = clb
He wrote several books, mostly mathematics, much survives.

Soranus of Ephesus (1st C.) = cl
Soranus was a physician, some of his work survives.

Pedanius Dioscorides (mid 1st C.) = clb
Wrote a large book on herbs and medicine in Turkey, still extant.

Nicarchus (1st C.) = cl
Nicarchus wrote poems in Alexandria, 1st C.

Gaius Valerius Flaccus (late 1st C.) = c
A poet in Rome c.90, some of his work remains.

Silius Italicus (1st C.) = cB
A Roman who wrote a large epic poem about the Punic Wars which survives.

Aretaeus of Cappadocia (1st C.) = cl
Aretaeus was a first century physician and author. Some of his work survives.

Statius the Younger (c.45 - c.96) = cB
Publius Papinius Statius wrote numerous minor and epic poems (e.g. Ode to Sleep and the Thebaid).

Sextus Julius Frontinus (late 1st C.) = c
Senator Frontinus wrote various books in Rome, a few survive.

Phaedrus (1st C.) = scb
Phaedrus wrote fables mid 1st century, and many survive.

Aelius Theon (1st C.) = sclb
Aelius Theon was an Alexandrian sophist and author of a collection of preliminary exercises (progymnasmata) for the training of orators.

Early 2nd C. (100 - 133)

Dio Chrysostom (c.40 - c.120) = cB
Dio Chrysostom (aka Cocceianus Dio, or Dion Prusa) wrote many works and gave many speeches in various Roman and Greek centres in late 1st century to early 2nd century, of which 80 survive e.g. the Euboicus.

Epictetus (55 - 135) = ScB
Epictetus is known for several books of Stoic religious and philosophic discourses in the early 2nd century. One of his disciples was Arrian, and thanks to him much of Epictetus' works are extant. Epictetus DID apparently mention "the Galileans", which could be a reference to the early Christians, or the revolt under Judas the Galilean in early 1st century.

Philippus of Thessalonica (early 2nd C.) = b
He wrote a large number of Roman epigrams.

Aspasius (early 2nd C.) = sb
Aspasius wrote on philosophy. Some of his work survives.

Demonax (early 2nd C.) = B
A poet of Athens, much of his work survives.

Suetonius (69 - 140) = cB
Suetonius wrote about first century Romans, much survives. His reference to 'Chrestus' does not seem to mean Jesus Christ.

Marcus Antonius Polemon (early 2nd C.) = slb
He wrote on philosophy in Phrygia, some survives.

Arrian (c.86 - 160) = B
Arrian wrote a History of Alexander in Athens c.120.

Florus (1st C. - 2nd C.) = sB
Lucius Annaeus Florus wrote an Epitome of Roman History.

Marcellus Sidetes (2nd C.) = lB
He wrote a large medical poem in Pamphylia, some survives.

Theon Smyrna (c.100) = slb
Theon of Smyrna wrote on astronomy/philosophy in early 2nd century.

Menelaus of Alexandria (early 2nd C.) = l
Wrote on geography and maths, a little survives.

Ptolemy (early 2nd C.) = slB
Claudius Ptolemaeus wrote many works in Alexandria, and much survives.

Mid 2nd C. (134 - 166)

Mathetes c.140 = SbX
Mathetes, a Christian author, wrote a book To Diognetus which has plenty to say about the Word, the Son of God, but no mention they had anything to do with a Jesus Christ, who is never even mentioned.

Minucius Felix c.150 = SBX
Minucius Felix wrote a book Octavius which defends Christian beliefs, but does not mention Jesus even once.

Tatian c.160 = SBX
Just before his mentor Justin Martyr died in c.163, Tatian wrote an Address to the Greeks which describes Christian beliefs in terms of the Logos, the first-born Son of God - without any mention of Jesus.

Athenagoras c.170 = SBX
Athenagoras wrote a Plea For the Christians, which says much about the Logos, the Son of God, but nothing of Jesus Christ. Athenagoras even wrote a lengthy work On the Resurrection in which he discusses Christian beliefs about resurrection - without ever once mentioning Jesus Christ or his resurrection.

Pausanias (mid 2nd C.) = B
Pausanias wrote the massive Guide to Greece in mid 2nd century. Pausanias' work is vast and the index covers over 70 pages of small print, I estimate a couple of thousand names are mentioned - a large number of minor figures from within and without Greece. He even mentions a Jewish prophetess - a figure so minor she is essentially unknown : "Then later than Demo there was a prophetic woman reared among the Jews beyond Palestine; her name was Sabbe." Phokis, Book X, 12, [5] Pausanias also mentions the Jewish rebellion under Hadrian.

Fronto (c.100 - 170) = s
Marcus Cornelius Fronto of Rome wrote several letters in mid 2nd century. According to Minucius Felix, he scandalised rites practiced by Roman Christians - so he could easily have mentioned Jesus.

Aelius Aristides (117 - 181) = sB
Aelius Aristides (not the Christian Aristides of Athens) the mid 2nd century Greek Orator spoke and wrote a History of Rome and other subjects - he seems to refer to the Christians as "impious men from Palestine" (Orations 46.2)

Hierocles (2nd C.) = sl
Hierocles of Alexandria wrote on Stoic philosophy in 2nd century.

Appian (c.95 - c.165) = B
Appian wrote a large Roman History (from the Gracchi to Caesar) in mid 2nd century.

Albinus (c.150) = sl
Albinus taught on (neo-)Platonism in mid 2nd century at Smyrna, a little survives.

Apollodorus (mid 2nd C.) = lB
(Pseudo) Apollodorus compiled a large Mythology in mid 2nd century, he died in Pergamon

Hephaestion (2nd C.) = lb
Hephaestion of Alexandria wrote several surviving works on poetry in mid 2nd century.

Maximus of Tyre (2nd C.) = sLB
Massius Maximus Tyrius, a Greek NeoPlatonic philosopher, wrote many works in mid 2nd century.

Lucius Apuleius (c.125 - c.180) = B
Lucius Apuleius wrote the Metamorphoses in mid-late 2nd C. (the Golden Ass or Transformations of Lucius) and other spiritual, historical, and philosophic works - several survive.

Aulus Gellius (c.125 - c.180) = B
Aulus Gellius wrote Attic Nights (Nights in Athens) in mid-late 2nd C., a large compendium of many topics and which mentioned many people.

Late 2nd C. (167 - 199)

Marcus Aurelius (c.112 - 180) = sB
Marcus Aelius Aurelius Antoninus wrote the Stoic Meditations c.167 - he (apparently) refers once to the Christians in XI, 3 -
" What a soul that is which is ready, if at any moment it must be separated from the body, and ready either to be extinguished or dispersed or continue to exist; but so that this readiness comes from a man's own judgement, not from mere obstinacy, as with the Christians, but considerately and with dignity and in a way to persuade another, without tragic show. "

Sextus Empiricus (c.160 - 210) = b
Sextus Empiricus wrote Outlines of Scepticism in late 2nd century.

Lost Works Which Apparently Did Not Mention Jesus

Emperor Claudius (10BCE - 54CE) Wrote several history books, little survives.

Atilicinus (1st C.) A Roman jurist.

Statius the Elder ( - c.83) Publius Papirius Statius wrote several works.

Menodotus of Nicomedia (early 2nd C.) A writer mentioned by Galen.

Favorinus (early 2nd C.) Favorinus wrote many works, only fragments survive.

Pompeius Saturninus (early 2nd C.) A historian and a poet.

Archigenes (1st - 2nd C.) A physician who wrote influential works, e.g. on the pulse.

Criton of Heraclea (early 2nd C.) Wrote several books but nothing survives.

Titus Aristo (early 2nd C.) A writer mentioned by Pliny, his works are lost.

Onasandros (1st C.) A philosopher, little of his work survives.

Moderatus of Gades (1st C.) Wrote about Pythagoras, little survives.

Aelius Cornelius Celsus (1st C.) He wrote many works in Rome.

Sulpicia (late 1st C.) Wrote love poems, almost all lost.

Damocrates (1st C.) Servilius Damocrates wrote several books.

Alexander of Aegae (1st C.) Alexander was a philosopher in Rome during the 1st C.

Verginius Flavus (mid 1st C.) A Roman writer, nothing survives.

Ammonius of Athens (1st C.) The mentor of Plutarch, who said he wrote about religion and sacred rites.

Gnaeus Domitius Afer (mid 1st C.) Afer wrote in the 1st century - little survives.

Pamphila (c.60) Pamphila of Epidaurus write a 33 volume Historical Notes up to her time of c.60.

Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulus Gaetulicus (early 1st C.) He wrote poems, little survives.

Pomponius Secundus (1st C.) He wrote many tragedies, very little survives.

Chaeremon of Alexandria (mid 1st C.) He wrote several works, little survives.

Saleius Bassus (late 1st C.) Bassus was a poet.

Bassus ( - c.60) Aufidius Bassus wrote a history up to at least the year 31.

Julia Agrippina (c.59) Julia Agrippina wrote her memoirs, which does not survive.

Cluvius Rufus (mid 1st C.) Cluvius Rufus wrote a detailed history from the year 37 until 69.

Nonianus (2 BCE - 59 CE) Marcus Servilius Nonianus wrote a history of the 1st century up to at least the year 41.


Last edited by Kapyong; 12th March 2018 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 12th March 2018, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus

Couldn't this have gone in one of the other 'history of Jebus' threads?
“It's not my responsibility to be beautiful. I'm not alive for that purpose. My existence is not about how desirable you find me.” ― Warsan shire
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Old 12th March 2018, 05:28 PM
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Default Re: Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus

So many things those older writers left out: trilobites for one.
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Old 12th March 2018, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus

How many of these mention Judas the Galilean?
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Old 12th March 2018, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus

Ask this bloke who wrote on the subject in 2013.

I'm sure you'll find a lot in common.
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Old 12th March 2018, 08:40 PM
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Default Re: Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus


Below is a rather good list put together by Iasion, a member of AboveTopSecret.com as part of a thread called ‘List of early writers who could have mentioned Jesus‘, used under a Creative Commons licence.
Goes on to list a lot of stuff, including the "weighting out of 5", pretty well verbatim what Kapyong is saying up there.

EDIT: @Kapyong: Is this plagiarised, or are you Iasion, recycling some very old material indeed?

On further reading, I see you are probably NOT Iasion, as "Kapyong" contributes to the thread further on.

Unacknowledged borrowing is viewed very dimly here.

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Old 12th March 2018, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus

toejam said View Post
How many of these mention Judas the Galilean?
This is a flippant dismissal based on a false analogy.

A serious study of Josephus does not naively accept at face value whatever Josephus writes. Judas the Galilean can scarcely be credited with the responsibility for a movement that led to the war with Rome as Josephus wanted his contemporaries to believe. See, for example,
  • McLaren, James S. 2004. "Constructing Judaean History in the Diaspora: Josephus’s Accounts of Judas." In Negotiating Diaspora: Jewish Strategies in the Roman Empire. , edited by John M. G. Barclay, 90-107. London ; New York: Bloomsbury Academic.
  • Mason, Steve. 2016. A History of the Jewish War, AD 66-74. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus

Such a list serves as a reminder of the riches in sources that are available for the early Roman empire period compared with many other periods of ancient times.

What is fundamental to historical research is the necessity to independently corroborate sources and their claims. It's not the only requirement but I have a hard time thinking of many ancient figures that are securely known to have existed without meeting that benchmark in the records.

I have listed below what I think are the fundamentals that historical researchers look for when examining the documentary sources. Independent corroboration is left to last.

  • Documents need to be assessed for authenticity;
-- that includes being able to trace their provenance, assess when they were possibly written, where, etc.
  • their authors ideally need to be identified in order for the investigator to have some idea of how likely they were to have access to certain information, what biases and agendas they may have had, etc;
-- We have such information for a good number of ancient authors
  • the literary culture that forms the matrix of the document needs to be understood in order to guide analysis and interpretation;
-- we need to understand the conventions of ancient historians and the proclivities of individuals: e.g. their tendency to invent historical accounts drawing upon classical epics and plays when their sources failed them
  • we need to be able to identify and evaluate the probable sources of ancient documents;
-- were they relying upon historians before them and if so, which ones, when did they live, what reasons do we have for thinking their work to be reliable, etc
-- part of this requirement is the acknowledgment that contemporary sources must form the basis of historical reconstructions. Sometimes later sources can be more reliable or act as checks but they can only rarely be a trusted starting point for historical inquiry
  • and claims made in the documents need to be independently corroborated
-- e.g by archaeology, by ancient monuments and inscriptions, by contemporary documents by unrelated authors, etc.
These are the fundamentals. Obviously such processes leave the historian with less data than historians of more recent times have at their fingertips. That doesn't mean that historians of ancient world lower their standards, however. It means instead that they ask broader questions or the sorts of questions that they know their sources will help them answer.

It also means their is often less certainty in some of their conclusions.

When it comes to the study of Jesus, historians are on the back foot with almost all of the above:

  • Authenticity:
There was a time when critical German and Dutch scholarship questioned the authenticity of all of Paul's letters. I think it is generally since American scholarship has dominated the field that their critical inquiries have been shelved. My point is not that we have no genuine letters of Paul but the fact that such a question can be asked should be of at least some concern to historical researchers.

The canonical gospels are of unknown provenance. We have a range of educated guesses but nothing more secure. The earliest they could reasonably have been written according is around 70 CE because three of them contain a prophecy of the fall of Jerusalem in that year; the earliest possible (not certain) attestation of them in the literature is around the middle of the second century; it is only in the later second century that we have definite knowledge of them in the sources.

  • Author identification:
We have no idea who wrote any of the canonical gospels. The names assigned to them ("according to Matthew" etc) were attached in the later second century and even then they do not unambiguously claim authorship. (They are "gospels according to Matthew, Mark...")

  • Literary matrix:
We know ancient schools taught the art of writing fictional letters with marks of verisimilitude. A letter is not, therefore, necessarily what it might seem. We know ancient authors wrote biographies and histories that had all the trappings of authenticity (claiming eye-witnesses etc) but that were in fact fabricated for didactic reasons, or for entertainment, or for less noble reasons. Even otherwise reputable historians would sometimes resort to fabrication.

  • Narrative sources:
In the case of the canonical gospels scholars have assumed that the stories of Jesus derived from oral traditions that originated with the historical events of Jesus' life. But this assumption, it turns out, is based on the conviction that there is some kernel of truth to the stories so they must have been passed on from accounts of eyewitnesses, however much they were later embellished by theological messages and exaggerations.

However not one of the gospel authors identifies any of their sources (they don't even identify themselves) which is unusual for ancient biographies and histories. Luke has a prologue with vague references to sources but they are never identified. Some have compared his prologue to a common fiction and one scholar has even argued that the Greek words actually mean Luke was referring to custodians of writings.

It is evident that many of the gospel narratives are adaptations of Old Testament and other tales. Example, Jesus raises the dead in scenes very similar to those of Elijah and Elisha performing the same type of miracle.

  • Independent corroboration:
Moses I. Finley was a highly reputable historian of ancient times who wrote quite often on methods of research. One essential he stressed was the need for independent corroboration. (I have even quoted Albert Schweitzer saying the same thing -- that the narratives of Jesus have no independent controls that can serve as confirmation of anything -- though he was a theologian who argued against the mythicists of his day.) I have posted a fuller discussion and quotations relating to this particular point see at An Ancient Historian on Historical Jesus Studies. I cite that now because this post is long enough even though it was intended as only a bare-bones outline of the problem historians are faced with when it comes to Jesus and Christian origins.

Kapyong's list of names only underscores the central question of how to apply valid and normative historical methods to the question of Jesus. My own view is that historians simply lack the fundamentals required of the sources say prima facie yea or nay regarding his historicity.
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:10 PM
toejam toejam is offline
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Default Re: Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus

Asking a question is a "flippant dismissal"? You're in troll mode again, Neil. No one is suggesting that Josephus should simply be taken at face value.
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: Early Writers Who Could Have Mentioned Jesus

toejam said View Post
Asking a question is a "flippant dismissal"? You're in troll mode again, Neil. No one is suggesting that Josephus should simply be taken at face value.
So you were not dismissing the list?

Do you have an valid argument why Kapyong's point has relevance or not? I thought it was a flippant dismissal but if it wasn't then I really do apologize.

Please stop accusing me of trolling, too. (I attempted to offer a reasoned, valid response, not something that sounded like a one-liner rhetorical dismissal.) And do stop being disingenuous about your regular innuendos, too. Please. Let's be nice. I have nothing against you. I have replied in good faith hoping for you to offer sound arguments.

Last edited by vridar; 12th March 2018 at 10:26 PM.
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