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  #301  
Old 20th November 2016, 03:17 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Royal Commission into child abuse announced

They don't get it, the do not. fucking. get. it.

Quote:
The Catholic Church wants nationally consistent criminal laws covering reporting child sexual abuse, but does not believe institutions should be held criminally liable.
They want a law that says "even if the church protects the paedophile and covers up after them we can't be held in any way responsible."

They also want it to say, by extension, "you can't come after the church for recompense because by law we can't be held liable."

Quote:
"Whatever law we end up with, it needs to be very, very clear about what the responsibilities are of individuals when they receive information that they reasonably believe is about a child being abused."
It's not about legal responsibilities, it's about responsibilities as a human being. I can guarantee every single one of those involved in the cover up and hiding of the crimes knew that as a responsible, ethical and reasonable human being they should do all in their power to prevent it happening. It doesn't matter how detailed and in depth a description of legal responsibility its made under the law, there are always those who will try and find away to avoid it. This can happen legally, it can't happen morally, if it does happen then you are not, ethical, reasonable and moral human being and shouldn't be trusted near children...oh and money, and anything else probably!

See here's where they get tricky, didn't take long;

Quote:
A reasonable excuse could include where someone already believes the allegation has been reported to the police, its submission to the royal commission said.
So if they think brother john the kiddy fiddler has reported it already, even if it continues unabated and they know about it, they can't be held responsible for taking no action at all. Fucking. immoral. bastards!

So all they do to get away with it is say "I believed it had already been reported." Case closed you can go home brother you have done nothing wrong.

And to add further weight to the evidence that they are bastards:

Quote:
He said the church believed that in civil law there needed to be a reversal of the onus of proof so institutions have to show they were not negligent in looking after children.
They want a reversal of burden of proof so even if the person abused has un-refutable evidence of the abuse the institution can still get away by showing they weren't negligent, this of course reverses the onus of care institutions have, the complainant would have to a) demonstrate they were abused and then b) demonstrate the abuse was a result of negligence by the institution, just being abused is not enough apparently, before they could claim compensation.

Now not being a legal person I may have that wrong, someone will come along and correct me I am sure.
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  #302  
Old 2nd December 2016, 11:51 AM
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stylofone stylofone is offline
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Default Re: Royal Commission into child abuse announced

The paper edition of the Telegraph has the headline "Jesus Wiped". It seems the Uniting Church feels the brand name of the whole religion, even Jesus himself, has been damaged by child sexual abuse, so they've taken Jesus and religious imagery out of their marketing.
Uniting Church under fire for ‘disowning the past’ over child sex abuse and ‘avoiding’ religious symbols
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  #303  
Old 2nd December 2016, 02:37 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Royal Commission into child abuse announced

Quote:
stylofone said View Post
The paper edition of the Telegraph has the headline "Jesus Wiped". It seems the Uniting Church feels the brand name of the whole religion, even Jesus himself, has been damaged by child sexual abuse, so they've taken Jesus and religious imagery out of their marketing.
Uniting Church under fire for ‘disowning the past’ over child sex abuse and ‘avoiding’ religious symbols
Just posted this in the religion section as well

A list of question for he Uniting Church;

1) Did you include any members of public not of your church or religion in coming to this decision?

2) Are any of you trained in advertising and/or psychology?

3) did you discuss this with any organisation that represents abuse victims?

4) Did you actually think when making this decision?

If the answer to any of these questions isn't no I would be most surprised!
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  #304  
Old 2nd December 2016, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: Royal Commission into child abuse announced

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stevebrooks said View Post
Just posted this in the religion section as well
Worth a thread of its own. It represents some sort of low point... or high point, not sure which.
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  #305  
Old 5th February 2017, 10:44 PM
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Default Re: Royal Commission into child abuse announced

Catholic use of confession to be scrutinised by child abuse royal commission

Quote:
Church argues obligations to report child sexual abuse should not extend to divulging information given in confessional
That would be all crimes? So murder as well? Mass murder? Where the only piece of evidence is from the confessional? That's actually quite perverted.

Quote:
Whether what is heard in the confessional box should continue to stay there will be considered by the child sexual abuse royal commission as it again turns its focus to widespread offending in the Catholic Church in Australia this week.

The former Victorian priest Paul David Ryan, jailed in 2006 for 18 months for indecently assaulting one victim, revealed during a 2015 private hearing that he confessed his sexual activity with adolescent boys to his confessor on multiple occasions.

Asked if that was the way he reconciled his actions with God, he said: “Yes. Well I thought I was. I know that was very seriously flawed.”


Over the next few weeks the royal commission will look at issues such as the sacrament of confession, celibacy, how priests and religious are selected, trained and supervised, and the church’s structure and governance as it examines why child abuse was so prominent in Catholic institutions.

The body co-ordinating the church’s response to the commission argues obligations to report child sexual abuse should not extend to divulging information in the confessional.

The Truth Justice and Healing Council chief executive, Francis Sullivan, believed there was no public evidence before the commission of someone actually confessing a crime of child sexual abuse under the seal of confession.

Alerted to Ryan’s testimony, Sullivan described it as an absolute abuse of the sacrament.

“If he’s saying he’s using the confessional as a way of alleviating his guilt so he can keep on abusing people, that’s an absolute corruption of the use of the confessional and it’s not what it’s about,” he said. “As a Catholic that’s repulses me.”

The commission has also heard the Melbourne pedophile Father Victor Gabriel Rubeo used a confessional situation to “take out” his confessor, who had been alerted by one of the priest’s victims.

“I gave absolution and, as he walked out the door, he laughed at me,” former priest Philip O’Donnell told a 2015 hearing. “In other words, he made sure that I couldn’t speak to anyone. I felt totally entrapped by that situation.”

Sullivan says it is up to the royal commission if it recommends changing privilege laws.

“If they do that and if governments change the law then priests like everybody else will need to either abide by the law and, if they don’t abide by the law, they take the consequences.”

A spokesman for the victims’ advocacy group Broken Rites, Dr Wayne Chamley, says answering why the abuse occurred is complex.

“It’s certainly not just celibacy,” he said. “I think what they’ll get into is this whole process of religious formation where essentially people were depersonalised, so they no longer were capable of empathy.”


The royal commission has received information about more than 4000 institutions but Sullivan has acknowledged the Catholic church is the single largest institutional setting in which children have been abused.
Largest institution where children are abused. The only one wanting special dispensation on reporting?

More at the link.
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  #306  
Old 6th February 2017, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: Royal Commission into child abuse announced

The Royal Commission enters its final stages:

4,444 victims: extent of abuse in Catholic church in Australia revealed
  • 37% of all private sessions royal commission held with survivors related to the Catholic Church
  • The average age of victims was 10.5 for girls and just over 11.5 for boys
  • In one order 40% of religious brothers are believed to have abused children


Quote:
... On Monday the royal commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse released damning statistics on the scale of the crisis within the Catholic Church. The numbers confirm the extent of sexual predation already suggested by four years of royal commission hearings involving the church, which are now entering their final weeks.

Up to 15% of priests in some dioceses were alleged perpetrators between 1950 and 2015, with abusers most prevalent in the dioceses of Sale and Sandhurst in Victoria, Port Pirie in South Australia, and Lismore and Wollongong in New South Wales. The numbers were even worse in some national Catholic orders. By far the worst was the order of the St John of God Brothers, where a staggering 40% of religious brothers are believed to have abused children.

Twenty-two per cent of Christian Brothers and 20% of Marist Brothers, both orders that run schools, were alleged perpetrators. More than one in five priests in the Benedictine community of New Norcia were alleged perpetrators, while 17.2% of clergy were accused of crimes against children in the Salesians of Don Bosco order.

...

The abuse allegedly took place in more than 1,000 institutions. The average age of victims was 10.5 for girls and 11.6 for boys. The overwhelming majority of survivors were male. Almost 1,900 perpetrators were identified and another 500 remained unidentified. ...

The disturbing figures were revealed by senior counsel assisting, Gail Furness, SC. She also revealed that the Holy See had refused to hand over documents involving Australian priests accused of abuse.

...

“The royal commission hoped to gain an understanding of the action taken in each case,” Furness said. “The Holy See responded, on 1 July 2014, that it was ‘neither possible nor appropriate to provide the information requested’,” she said.

Furness said the responses of Catholic diocese and orders across the country were “depressingly similar”.

“Children were ignored or worse, punished. Allegations were not investigated. Priests and religious [brothers] were moved. The parishes or communities to which they were moved knew nothing of their past,” she said. “Documents were not kept or they were destroyed. Secrecy prevailed as did cover-ups.” ...
Now for some under-statements of the century:

Quote:
The church’s Truth, Justice and Healing council, set up to coordinate the church’s response to the crisis, made an opening statement following the release of the data. Chief executive Francis Sullivan struggled with emotion as he spoke, saying the data without doubt “undermines the image and credibility of the priesthood”.


You don't say!

Quote:
“These numbers are shocking, they are tragic, they are indefensible,” Sullivan said. “And each entry in this data for the most part represents a child who suffered at the hands of someone who should have cared for and protected them.

“The data is an indictment on the priests and religious who abused these children. It also reflects on the church leaders who at times failed to take steps to deal with the abusers, failed to call them to order and failed to deal with them in accordance with the law.”

Sullivan described the abuse as a “massive failure” of the church and as a corruption of the gospel.

“As Catholics, we hang our heads in shame,” he said ...
Notice no acceptance of these appalling crimes being a foreseeable result of the doctrines and practices (e.g. celibacy) of the church.

...

Yet.
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Last edited by Blue Lightning; 6th February 2017 at 12:09 PM.
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  #307  
Old 6th February 2017, 12:19 PM
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Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
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Default Re: Royal Commission into child abuse announced

I don't see how it is possible to reform a faith-based system, even if these institutions agreed with every measure proposed to prevent abuse.

How can a system that demands special privileges, and makes evidence and even reason-free claims ever be reformed to prevent any future abuse. The churches will wait until the fury dies down, and people forget, and they will go back to all their old tricks. it is what they do. It is what they are.
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  #308  
Old 9th February 2017, 08:08 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Royal Commission into child abuse announced

I see the commission is debating the sanctity of the confessional, but I am not really sure why. What is the argument for keeping it secret?

Quote:
"I ask myself if you take away the seal of the confessional, is it any more likely that anyone will come to confession and confess pedophilia?," he said on Thursday.
Ok, lets examine this. It's not actually a confession. Why? Because the person doing the confessing knows damn well that nothing will be done. He may as well be standing in the middle of a forest confessing to his imaginary friend, it has the same effect and the same result, nothing.

Quote:
The woman who wrote to Father Brennan said her father thought he was a '"good Catholic" and felt vindicated after being forgiven at confessional.
So the confessional actually acts as a justifier for continued abuse, he's a good catholic, he just has lapses of judgement that can be forgiven. I think we all see that, why doesn't the church?

It appears the commission may declare the sanctity of the confessional void in the case of child abuse;

Quote:
Earlier, Commissioner Robert Fitzgerald said it was likely the royal commission would recommend priests be required by law to report knowledge of sex offences which may help circumvent a secrecy requirement among Church leadership.
Will this have a detrimental effect? Well no, as pointed out earlier confessing in secret actually has no affect on the perpetrator and may actually encourage them, and as far as confessions, if nothing is going to be done as a result of the confession anyway it may as well not happen.
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  #309  
Old 10th February 2017, 11:10 AM
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Default Re: Royal Commission into child abuse announced

Confession should not have more legal status than psychiatry.
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  #310  
Old 28th February 2017, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: Royal Commission into child abuse announced

Despite her cathaholic-ism and other matters I disagree with, Kristina Keneally makes some good points about the outrage factory:

Catholicism has done more harm to Australia than Islam. Where's the outrage?
Every Muslim who speaks out is expected to own, explain and condemn any act carried out by Muslims worldwide. The same doesn’t apply to Catholics


Quote:
...

It seems that every Australian Muslim who pokes their head up in public is expected to own, explain and condemn any terrorist act carried out by any extremist Muslim anywhere in the world. The outrage machine demands it, and then that same machine judges if the words are sufficient.

Why isn’t this same outrage applied to Australian Catholics? If we are going on a body count the Catholic clergy has done more harm to more Australians than extremist Muslims. More than 4,000 reports of sexual abuse at the hands of Catholic clergy made to the royal commission. God knows how many more are unreported. Innocent Australian children and young people are the victims. Lives have been ruined: suicides and mental illness, broken families, grotesque physical injury.

Why isn’t the outrage machine demanding the Catholic prime minister condemn this horrendous and sustained attack on Australians every time the commission hears from another victim of Catholic abuse?

Why aren’t they regularly calling for the Catholic deputy prime minister to speak out and make clear he does not condone what some Catholic clergy have done?

Why aren’t they asking the Catholic-raised leader of the opposition about whether Cardinal George Pell should face questions in Australia? Oh, wait, the leader of the opposition said in parliament two weeks ago that Cardinal Pell should be sent back to Australia to face questions. Why didn’t the outrage machine join that bandwagon?

Why aren’t they demanding the government urgently implement a national redress scheme to make reparations to the Catholic church’s victims?

Or is taking on Australian Catholics hitting just a little too close to home?

It’s easier, isn’t it, to pick on the young woman {on Q&A} with the scarf on her head, or get upset about two little girls in a hijab, all in the name of making Australia safe.

What brave defenders of freedom, of Australia, you are.
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