Go Back   AFA Forums > Secularism and Social Issues > Ethics and Justice

Ethics and Justice Ethics, morality, and justice in society

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #61  
Old 7th September 2017, 06:38 PM
odd's Avatar
odd odd is offline
I, for one, welcome our new insect overlord.
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pianosa.
Posts: 9,462
Default Re: Welfare Users?

Mike Jay is a fan of Ayn Rand - the problem with Ayn Rand is that she was writing about brilliant business people who were fighting against a type of government that doesn't actually exist in reality - it was a strawman.
__________________

'[They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.' ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

'While on the other hand, dachshunds are always out of their depth.' - Cyclist

'I'm 'a' problem, not 'the' problem.' - Wolty

'You have to be odd to be number one.' - Dr Suess
Reply With Quote
Thank The Irreverent Mr Black thanked this post
  #62  
Old 7th September 2017, 06:56 PM
142857's Avatar
142857 142857 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,172
Default Re: Welfare Users?

MikeJay appears to be unaware that trickle-down economics has already been tried. Repeatedly and over an extended period of time. And it doesn't work.

If you want to stimulate an economy, more money in the pockets of, and being spent by, those 2000 employees would be a better go than more money sitting in Jerome's bank account.
__________________
".....If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but...will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

- Marcus Aurelius (claimed)
Reply With Quote
Thank The Irreverent Mr Black thanked this post
  #63  
Old 7th September 2017, 06:56 PM
The Irreverent Mr Black's Avatar
The Irreverent Mr Black The Irreverent Mr Black is offline
Face Palms...
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Toontown
Posts: 3,931
Default Re: Welfare Users?

Quote:
odd said View Post
Mike Jay is a fan of Ayn Rand - the problem with Ayn Rand is that she was writing about brilliant business people who were fighting against a type of government that doesn't actually exist in reality - it was a strawman.
Comparatively, that book is even more fictional than the bible.

Its author wasn't above grabbing a bit of that despised welfare, either.

Quote:
In 2011, it was revealed that Rand had spent the last eight years of her life receiving Social Security and Medicare benefits. At the time of her death, her estate was valued at $500,000 (around $1.2 million in today’s money), suggesting her decision was motivated less by rationality than by the sort of parasitic greed she’d always claimed to despise.

What’s most interesting about all this is how Rand and her followers conspired to keep this fact a secret, even as they preached total self-reliance.
__________________


Be wary: Snark-infested waters.

Reply With Quote
Like odd liked this post
Thank odd, 142857, wadaye, LadyGreen thanked this post
  #64  
Old 7th September 2017, 07:05 PM
142857's Avatar
142857 142857 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,172
Default Re: Welfare Users?

Quote:
MikeJay said View Post
Bob is one of 2000 employees.
Jerome's construction business generates 50 million in tax revenue.
Jerome pulls 5 million per year in personal income from the business
Thanks Jerome for generating 50 million in tax revenue, employing 2000 people and building homes, here have a tax break.
Jerome thinks, "fark.... if I wanted 10 million tax free all I'd have to do is employ another 2000 people, build double the amount of homes and generate 100 million in tax revenue or I could just pay the government 2.5 million in personal income and not put on any more people or build any extra homes because why bother"
We have a market-based economy.

If there is demand for more homes and Jerome doesn't want to build them, then there are other construction businesses who will employ those 2,000 people that Jerome has chosen not to employ, and build those homes that Jerome has chosen not to build.

And pay the taxes that Jerome doesn't want to pay.
__________________
".....If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but...will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

- Marcus Aurelius (claimed)
Reply With Quote
Thank The Irreverent Mr Black thanked this post
  #65  
Old 8th September 2017, 08:56 AM
Stub King's Avatar
Stub King Stub King is offline
Take my advice, don't listen to me
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 827
Default Re: Welfare Users?

Quote:
MikeJay said View Post
Bob is one of 2000 employees.
Jerome's construction business generates 50 million in tax revenue.
Jerome pulls 5 million per year in personal income from the business
Thanks Jerome for generating 50 million in tax revenue, employing 2000 people and building homes, here have a tax break.
stop right here.

1. Jerome is a person, his business is a corporation. these are two different legal entities and to equate them with each other is a fallacy. he does not employ anyone, the company does. he does not generate anything, the company does
2. Company did fuck all other than meet demand. if people - just like Jerome and his employees - had not demanded the products, this whole story collapses in a screaming heap. so if anything, Jerome should donate most of his salary to the consumers who wanted his products and made the company and his job possible.
3. owing to these two, there is no reason in the world to treat Jerome other than like an employee who gets a salary and pays his taxes like everybody else.
__________________
The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it. (Osho)
Reply With Quote
Like The Irreverent Mr Black liked this post
  #66  
Old 8th September 2017, 09:14 AM
Stub King's Avatar
Stub King Stub King is offline
Take my advice, don't listen to me
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 827
Default Re: Welfare Users?

bludgers feeding their drug habit on our welfare dollars ... or is it drugs that push them to be on welfare? me wonder

__________________
The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it. (Osho)
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 8th September 2017, 10:09 AM
The Irreverent Mr Black's Avatar
The Irreverent Mr Black The Irreverent Mr Black is offline
Face Palms...
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Toontown
Posts: 3,931
Default Re: Welfare Users?

Quote:
Stub King said View Post
bludgers feeding their drug habit on our welfare dollars ... or is it drugs that push them to be on welfare? me wonder

Factoring in changes in size of the labour market (particularly in less-skilled sectors)?
__________________


Be wary: Snark-infested waters.

Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 8th September 2017, 08:15 PM
Goldenmane's Avatar
Goldenmane Goldenmane is offline
Cuss-tard
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 7,240
Default Re: Welfare Users?

Generally speaking, serious drug use and addiction are coping mechanisms resorted to when other options are limited or nonexistent.

Speaking only for myself, it has served as a way of staving off the pain that comes from having limited prospects in life, from being innately sensitive (I have in the past said that I had to cauterise my heart as a method of self-protection), from having to spend thirty years of my life tunnelling through woo and bullshit and realising how often and how extensively I had been lied to.

It's a little more complicated than that, but that's the bare bones of it. I sought self-control and self-determination in martial arts, being already someone a bit wild and wooly, but also inclined toward esoterica. When it turned out that my kungfu instructer knew the Tsui Pa Hsien system - Drunk Eight Immortals - and that he really wanted to pass it on to an acrobatic little lunatic not unlike myself, I took to it like a duck to water.

There's a curious thing that happens when you immerse yourself in that sort of training. I wasn't actually much of a drinker before I started, though I had had some of the usual experiences with recreational chemicals of one sort or another. But once I had learned a significant part of the movement sequence (known as the 'form') sufficiently well that my teacher was convinced that I was the right student, I was required to drink whilst training.

We're not talking beer, here. His specific instructions were, "I want you to buy the cheapest, strongest, most disgusting tasting brandy you can find, and eight Chinese tea cups. It has to be strong and it has to taste fucking awful, because that's what the Chinese stuff you're supposed to drink is like, but it's illegal to sell it in Australia because it's too strong."

I was required to drink 7 shots of brandy at the start of training. The eighth is an offering to the Immortals.

Then you drink another at set intervals.

I trained six days a week, for a minimum of 4 hours a day.

Quietus.

Exhausted, and drunk (though far less incoherent than you might expect after two-thirds or more of a bottle of brandy), you can sleep.

You're not hungover, either. I held down steady jobs and did a lot of volunteer work during that ten years plus. I was a productive member of society, though the paid work was usually shit and/or shittily compensated, and the volunteer work never lead to a career doing what I wanted.

So, again. Trying to claw some prospects out of life, and self-medicating with a form of training that ultimately you realise you cannot make an ethical living from.

And here's the kicker: The society I grew up in has been tailored for at least a few generations toward telling me a number of things that are bullshit, but the big one is that it's normal and right to resort to alcohol or other intoxicants in lieu of any actually healthy intervention. My dad did it, as did his dad. There's only so much fighting you can do against the fucked-upedness of this goddamn thing called life, but the fucking imps that niggle at you in the dead of night won't shut the fuck up, so you have to drown them out.

Welp, there's another pointless fucking rant for you.

TL;DR: people get wasted far more because they're trying to quieten their (metaphorical) demons than because they're inherently bad or lazy.
__________________
-Geoff Rogers

@Goldenmane3

Reply With Quote
Like The Irreverent Mr Black, odd liked this post
  #69  
Old 8th September 2017, 09:38 PM
MikeJay MikeJay is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,301
Default Re: Welfare Users?

Quote:
Stub King said View Post
stop right here.

1. Jerome is a person, his business is a corporation. these are two different legal entities and to equate them with each other is a fallacy. he does not employ anyone, the company does. he does not generate anything, the company does
2. Company did fuck all other than meet demand. if people - just like Jerome and his employees - had not demanded the products, this whole story collapses in a screaming heap. so if anything, Jerome should donate most of his salary to the consumers who wanted his products and made the company and his job possible.
3. owing to these two, there is no reason in the world to treat Jerome other than like an employee who gets a salary and pays his taxes like everybody else.
1. Jerome decides he's made enough, had enough, and wants to retire, he liquidates his assets, fires everyone and closes the business, now tell me Jerome isn't his business.

2. It's businesses that create and sell a product or service that creates economic demand for that product, not the other way around. If there was no product there is no economic demand. You can't confuse wishful thinking or desire for a thing with economic demand for a thing, they're not the same thing.

3. Owing to 1 and 2 there is every reason Jerome is a fkn hero.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 8th September 2017, 09:45 PM
Goldenmane's Avatar
Goldenmane Goldenmane is offline
Cuss-tard
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 7,240
Default Re: Welfare Users?

Quote:
MikeJay said View Post
Quote:
Stub King said View Post
stop right here.

1. Jerome is a person, his business is a corporation. these are two different legal entities and to equate them with each other is a fallacy. he does not employ anyone, the company does. he does not generate anything, the company does
2. Company did fuck all other than meet demand. if people - just like Jerome and his employees - had not demanded the products, this whole story collapses in a screaming heap. so if anything, Jerome should donate most of his salary to the consumers who wanted his products and made the company and his job possible.
3. owing to these two, there is no reason in the world to treat Jerome other than like an employee who gets a salary and pays his taxes like everybody else.
1. Jerome decides he's made enough, had enough, and wants to retire, he liquidates his assets, fires everyone and closes the business, now tell me Jerome isn't his business.
Does that happen, though? I've never known it to happen. Normally, Jerome either gives his business to his kids or sells the fucking thing.
__________________
-Geoff Rogers

@Goldenmane3

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 08:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.