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  #51  
Old 6th September 2017, 10:20 AM
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Default Re: Welfare Users?

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MikeJay said View Post
Personally, if a business employs thousands of people and has payroll tax, company tax etc taken from it and its employees all have tax taken from them, I'd be quite OK if the owner pulls 10s of millions in personal income, tax free, as a thank you very much.
Does not make any sense. Someone taking home 10s of million od dollars can afford to pay something towards the education of their future employees, the upkeep of the roads they transport their goods on, the hospitals that keep their employees well, etc, etc, and relieve some of the burden of the cost of these things from those earning lower incomes. Government costs a lot of money, all citizens should pay their fair share.
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Last edited by odd; 6th September 2017 at 12:35 PM.
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  #52  
Old 6th September 2017, 10:24 AM
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So the income tax of the employees justifies the non-income-tax of the employer?

Almost sounds like the divine right of kings.
So you want to single out just the employees tax? thats not what I said. The benefit to the economy in terms of providing jobs, products and or services and the total of company tax revenue + employee tax revenue + GST on those goods and services justifies giving the owner an income tax break.
How? Income is income. Tax is the price of income.
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  #53  
Old 6th September 2017, 02:27 PM
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Default Re: Welfare Users?

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MikeJay said View Post
Personally, if a business employs thousands of people and has payroll tax, company tax etc taken from it and its employees all have tax taken from them, I'd be quite OK if the owner pulls 10s of millions in personal income, tax free, as a thank you very much.
Spoken like a true French aristocrat circa...1780ish?
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  #54  
Old 6th September 2017, 09:54 PM
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odd said View Post
Does not make any sense. Someone taking home 10s of million od dollars can afford to pay something towards the education of their future employees, the upkeep of the roads they transport their goods on, the hospitals that keep their employees well, etc, etc, and relieve some of the burden of the cost of these things from those earning lower incomes. Government costs a lot of money, all citizens should pay their fair share.
The owner's business already does, if they're pulling that much in personal income, then the business is already generating many times that in tax revenue on its own.
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  #55  
Old 6th September 2017, 09:59 PM
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The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
How? Income is income. Tax is the price of income.
Sure, and tax breaks is the price of growing business, creating more jobs, products, services, and generating more tax revenue than the value of the tax breaks.
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  #56  
Old 6th September 2017, 10:13 PM
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MikeJay said View Post
The owner's business already does, if they're pulling that much in personal income, then the business is already generating many times that in tax revenue on its own.
And the workers on significantly smaller salaries and their jobs will probably be outsourced to AI and automation soon enough and then the business will make even more money and the owner will take home $50 million a year, tax free because in your words Mike, 'thanks a lot', and 10,000 people have trouble finding enough coins to buy a bag of rice and this is a good system why exactly?

What is the good of an economic system that rewards an increasingly small minority?

Why are those that happen to be in a position to exploit the system deserving of reward to the detriment of the majority? What is innately good about the system that success within it constitutes, in itself, virtue? Are the 10,000 to blame for their poverty or is the system to blame?

Bare in mind, when considering these questions, I have no ideological problem with free trade, capitalism and the entrepreneurial spirit - I just don't think they are sacred endeavours in need of tax liberation.
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  #57  
Old 6th September 2017, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Welfare Users?

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MikeJay said View Post
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odd said View Post
Does not make any sense. Someone taking home 10s of million od dollars can afford to pay something towards the education of their future employees, the upkeep of the roads they transport their goods on, the hospitals that keep their employees well, etc, etc, and relieve some of the burden of the cost of these things from those earning lower incomes. Government costs a lot of money, all citizens should pay their fair share.
The owner's business already does, if they're pulling that much in personal income, then the business is already generating many times that in tax revenue on its own.
I think I see the problem between our views:
1. Bob works for Jerome
2. Jerome pays Bob $65,000 per year.
3. Bob pays income tax of $13,000.
4. You are saying that Jerome, not Bob, pays the $13,000 income tax - please correct me if I am wrong.
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Last edited by odd; 6th September 2017 at 10:47 PM.
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  #58  
Old 7th September 2017, 06:18 PM
MikeJay MikeJay is offline
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Default Re: Welfare Users?

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odd said View Post
I think I see the problem between our views:
1. Bob works for Jerome
2. Jerome pays Bob $65,000 per year.
3. Bob pays income tax of $13,000.
4. You are saying that Jerome, not Bob, pays the $13,000 income tax - please correct me if I am wrong.
Bob is one of 2000 employees.
Jerome's construction business generates 50 million in tax revenue.
Jerome pulls 5 million per year in personal income from the business
Thanks Jerome for generating 50 million in tax revenue, employing 2000 people and building homes, here have a tax break.
Jerome thinks, "fark.... if I wanted 10 million tax free all I'd have to do is employ another 2000 people, build double the amount of homes and generate 100 million in tax revenue or I could just pay the government 2.5 million in personal income and not put on any more people or build any extra homes because why bother"
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  #59  
Old 7th September 2017, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Welfare Users?

Quote:
MikeJay said View Post
Quote:
odd said View Post
I think I see the problem between our views:
1. Bob works for Jerome
2. Jerome pays Bob $65,000 per year.
3. Bob pays income tax of $13,000.
4. You are saying that Jerome, not Bob, pays the $13,000 income tax - please correct me if I am wrong.
Bob is one of 2000 employees.
Jerome's construction business generates 50 million in tax revenue.
Jerome pulls 5 million per year in personal income from the business
Thanks Jerome for generating 50 million in tax revenue, employing 2000 people and building homes, here have a tax break.
Jerome thinks, "fark.... if I wanted 10 million tax free all I'd have to do is employ another 2000 people, build double the amount of homes and generate 100 million in tax revenue or I could just pay the government 2.5 million in personal income and not put on any more people or build any extra homes because why bother"
Few problems with that though.

Someone earning that sort of money should be contributing - they can afford it, someone taking home 5 million a year doesn't need a tax break.

Crucial to any businesses success is the infrastructure the rest of us have paid for, and if he is going to employ another 2000 people they will all need to get to work - they will do that using the roads or in the busses and trains that we will build for him.

The analogy is flawed because business growth isn't scalable like that. Businesses already get tax breaks to encourage the stuff you are talking about, the last thing we need is rich people avoiding income tax as well.
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'While on the other hand, dachshunds are always out of their depth.' - Cyclist

'I'm 'a' problem, not 'the' problem.' - Wolty

'You have to be odd to be number one.' - Dr Suess

Last edited by odd; 7th September 2017 at 07:00 PM.
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  #60  
Old 7th September 2017, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: Welfare Users?

Jerome finds ways of cutting his wage bill, decreasing costs of supply, and circumventing/delaying what taxes he does have to pay, while lobbying for more corporate welfare.
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