Go Back   AFA Forums > Secularism and Social Issues > Education

Education How it is and how it should be. The current system and those attempting to subvert it.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 6th December 2016, 11:37 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 4,119
Default Misuse of fallacies

While there are a number of people with signatures linking pages of explanation about fallacies, and similarly while Hackenslash has written an essay on the topic

http://reciprocity-giving-something-...ction-and.html

I keep encountering the bizarre notion here that criticizing someone, someone's behavior, or talking about them at all amounts to an ad hominem fallacy.

Aside from the obvious problem of the fallacist's fallacy, which is often just a diversionary tactic, there's clearly a miscomprehension here.

If I am talking to Hackenslash and I call him an ejaculatory doe-eyed dingbat, while I have obviously been deathly insulting (duels have been fought for less), it is not an ad hominem fallacy. It's just a personal attack, a simple insult.

An ad hominem fallacy is solely the result of attempting to rebut an argument by appealing to the behavior, personal trait, or personality of the interlocutor. And the key component there is the transference of a focus from the content of an argument to the personality.

So if Hackenslash was telling me (and he has) that Blues music is basically non-music, has no quality other than being a passage people go through on their way to learning what real music is, and I responded:

Quote:
You are wrong because you're a flatulent wool-eared teabag, so what would you know?
Then I have actually committed an ad hominem fallacy. Instead of addressing his point and rebutting it, I have instead opted to attack him and specifically his ability with respect to knowing about music (those wooly ears), thereby hoping to undermine his claim and diminish the credibility of his point by reference to his alleged flaws.

If, on the other hand, I say:

Quote:
You are wrong because blues is about plucking one's emotions, and music is not just about technical ability, but about how it makes you feel. You flatulent wool-eared teabag!
Then I have made an argument (which he will undoubtedly insult me for) and I have added my own extra insult just for spice, without there being any actual ad hominem fallacy taking place at all.

Now, while it's obviously ideal that people don't insult each other, it's potentially even more insulting (to yourself) to publicly toss out phrases, which themselves amount to accusations, that you don't understand, and ironically which fall foul of themselves being a fallacy.

So next time someone calls you a grass-assed snake mitten, or volcanic asshole casserole, or self-righteous rimjob rumbler.... remember, it's just an insult not a fallacy.

Last edited by Spearthrower; 6th December 2016 at 11:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 6th December 2016, 11:51 PM
DanDare's Avatar
DanDare DanDare is offline
Religion or Reality, choose...
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 7,395
Default Re: Misuse of fallacies

Ad Hominem is the most abused, followed closely by "begging the question" which people seem to think means "leading to question X", instead of "avoiding question X by assuming the answer in the argument".

Then straw man takes third place where people think it means "a weak argument". I have also seen it used for "you made an argument I don't agree with".
__________________
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
-Thomas Jefferson

Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
Reply With Quote
Like Spearthrower, two dogs liked this post
  #3  
Old 6th December 2016, 11:53 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 4,119
Default Re: Misuse of fallacies

Quote:
DanDare said View Post
Then straw man takes third place where people think it means "a weak argument". I have also seen it used for "you made an argument I don't agree with".
Yes, this is a frustrating one. I've seen this many times recently where it amounts to 'you used different words than I did, therefore it's a strawman' where the words used, and the sentence crafted were synonymous with theirs.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 7th December 2016, 12:27 AM
hackenslash's Avatar
hackenslash hackenslash is offline
Trust me, I'm not a doctor.
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: People's Republic of Mancunia, Antipodes
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Misuse of fallacies

It seems a submission on the fallacist's fallacy is in order.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Like Spearthrower, DanDare liked this post
  #5  
Old 7th December 2016, 07:22 AM
virphen's Avatar
virphen virphen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 254
Default Re: Misuse of fallacies

My favourite example was Lion IRC (did he ever turn up here?) whose stock defence to child sex abuse allegations was "no true Christian". When naturally accused of a True Scotsman fallacy he "learned" ... by which I mean whenever anyone said anything he disagreed with he tended to accuse them of a true scotsman fallacy without the slightest notion of what it actually meant and when it was and was not applicable.
Reply With Quote
Laugh at Sendraks laughed at this post
  #6  
Old 7th December 2016, 09:02 AM
DanDare's Avatar
DanDare DanDare is offline
Religion or Reality, choose...
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 7,395
Default Re: Misuse of fallacies

I vaguely remember Lion showing up here and promptly being given Ornage status some years ago. He took umbrage and left.
__________________
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
-Thomas Jefferson

Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
Reply With Quote
Like Spearthrower liked this post
  #7  
Old 7th December 2016, 10:08 PM
lulu's Avatar
lulu lulu is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Hunter Valley NSW
Posts: 333
Default Re: Misuse of fallacies

Didn't he debate someone? Davo maybe?

Sent from my SM-N915G using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 7th December 2016, 10:40 PM
wearestardust's Avatar
wearestardust wearestardust is offline
What me socialist?
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: not telling
Posts: 8,485
Default Re: Misuse of fallacies

Quote:
DanDare said View Post
He took umbrage and left.
Ah. That's where it went.
__________________
If you need to wonder what would drive somebody to instruct lawyers, you may already be close to trouble.
- the Hircine Reverend
Reply With Quote
Like DanDare liked this post
  #9  
Old 7th December 2016, 10:46 PM
surreptitious57 surreptitious57 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 642
Default Re: Misuse of fallacies

He did debate with Crocodile at Rat Skep about homosexuality
__________________
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 7th December 2016, 11:09 PM
hackenslash's Avatar
hackenslash hackenslash is offline
Trust me, I'm not a doctor.
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: People's Republic of Mancunia, Antipodes
Posts: 1,537
Default Re: Misuse of fallacies

He's fairly well known in many places. I recall somebody at talkrat referring to him as Lying Irk.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Like DanDare liked this post
Laugh at DanDare laughed at this post
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 07:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.