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 Education How it is and how it should be. The current system and those attempting to subvert it.

#1
4th June 2016, 04:53 PM
 DanDare Religion or Reality, choose... Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Posts: 7,471
Religious Indoctrination rides again

An agregious ad for SRE that's all over the web right now: https://www.youthworks.net/freedom

Quote:
 Free to choose. So they will know. The battle for SRE’s allocated space within the NSW school timetable continues. What’s at stake is the freedom for parents to choose Special Religious Education for their children. Opposing atheist lobby groups are working to take away that right to choose, and with it, the opportunity for generations of students to learn from the Bible and explore their personal faith. And for that reason, together, we must continue to strengthen SRE teacher training and curriculum to keep this choice for parents. Your gift will help parents in NSW be free to choose SRE! The battle for SRE’s allocated space within the NSW school timetable continues. As it does, Scripture in schools across Australia continues to be under pressure by opposing atheist lobby groups. Your gift by June 30 will be DOUBLED to help ensure parents in NSW continue to be free to choose SRE! Thanks to the limited $15,000 Match Fund, your gift by June 30 will be doubled to help ensure SRE remains strong, academically robust and professionally taught – so children have the freedom to know about Jesus! That means, when combined with the Match Fund, a gift of …$29 helps create 2 units of SRE teaching training $70 enables the development of 2 high school SRE lessons$120 provides personal support for 2 SRE coordinators $145 helps 2 teachers complete all five units of SRE training$250 equips 2 local-area SRE Accreditation Trainers Thank you for giving generously below to help ensure parents are free to choose SRE for their children!
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"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
-Thomas Jefferson

Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
#2
4th June 2016, 05:37 PM
 wolty This space for rent Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Brisbane Posts: 24,433
Re: Religious Indoctrination rides again

Urgh.
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The Nizkor Project- Logical Fallacies

Atheist: n; A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
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#3
4th June 2016, 05:59 PM
 Xeno Extant Join Date: May 2010 Location: Altitude 700 m Posts: 8,551
Re: Religious Indoctrination rides again

What about the freedom not to choose SRE in NSW, where the process is opt-out provided you first ask whether that is an option?

As for Tasmania, I have quite a lot of certainty about christian truths.
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#4
4th June 2016, 06:29 PM
 Spearthrower Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 4,119
Re: Religious Indoctrination rides again

Can you clarify? Is SRE religious education solely about the preferred parental faith?

So a student would only learn about Christianity, for example, or would have extra classes to learn about Christianity?

Also, I assume this form of learning isn't the same as you'd learn about other religions, but rather of the proselytizing form?

It's been said before, but if they want proselytizing to go on in public schools, perhaps we should push to have science - particularly evolutionary biology by qualified scientists - taught in churches.
#5
4th June 2016, 11:08 PM
 joele AFA Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,507
Re: Religious Indoctrination rides again

Quote:
 Spearthrower said Can you clarify? Is SRE religious education solely about the preferred parental faith?
Correct..

Quote:
 So a student would only learn about Christianity, for example, or would have extra classes to learn about Christianity?
The way it worked in Victoria* was for one period a week all the christian kids were taken to another room, learnt about god and the ones whose parents opted out (until the final year you had to specifically opt out) where kept separate but weren't allowed to do any learning so as not to disadvantage the kids who weren't opted out.

There was no comparative religion class so they only had the christian class, and it wasn't learning about the religion it was instruction in how to practice the religion by evangelical groups.

* though recently removed, this year in fact, who knows if that is permanent or just waiting for a state government change. (now they can only offer it at lunch or after school)

Quote:
 Also, I assume this form of learning isn't the same as you'd learn about other religions, but rather of the proselytizing form?
correct..

Quote:
 It's been said before, but if they want proselytizing to go on in public schools, perhaps we should push to have science - particularly evolutionary biology by qualified scientists - taught in churches.
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"Faith: not wanting to know what is true" - Nietzsche

“Religion the protector of the well fed and consoler of the hungry.” - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by joele; 4th June 2016 at 11:09 PM.
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#6
4th June 2016, 11:39 PM
 Spearthrower Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 4,119
Re: Religious Indoctrination rides again

Quote:
 joele said The way it worked in Victoria* was for one period a week all the christian kids were taken to another room, learnt about god and the ones whose parents opted out (until the final year you had to specifically opt out) where kept separate but weren't allowed to do any learning so as not to disadvantage the kids who weren't opted out.
That, in particular, is criminal in my opinion. It's a clear Christian privilege that harms those of non-Christian persuasion.

But someone should have pointed out quite publicly that they clearly didn't value the Christian teaching very highly to work under the assumption that the other kids weren't being disadvantaged.

Last edited by Spearthrower; 4th June 2016 at 11:40 PM.
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#7
5th June 2016, 06:39 AM
 wadaye AFA Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 4,686
Re: Religious Indoctrination rides again

I notice the slip of the tongue in the advert is SRI rather than SRE. Special Religious Instruction.
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#8
5th June 2016, 07:08 AM
 two dogs Why do you ask ...? Administrator Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Shell Cove, NSW Posts: 9,392
Re: Religious Indoctrination rides again

Quote:
 wadaye said I notice the slip of the tongue in the advert is SRI rather than SRE. Special Religious Instruction.

I think it is termed SRI in Victoria?
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#9
5th June 2016, 09:32 AM
 Xeno Extant Join Date: May 2010 Location: Altitude 700 m Posts: 8,551
Re: Religious Indoctrination rides again

SRI in some States, SRE in others.

In NSW based on private philanthropy a set of ethics lessons have been created and are run by volunteers, offered during the same period as SRE. The christians immediately said
• Such lessons should not be given because christianity was the basis of ethics.
• it was unfair anyway because their children should get the same education too.
Yes, they managed to argue both of those.

Later, a hard right christian in the upper house of NSW bargaining with a devout christian premier has arranged that, as I suggested earlier, ethics classes are no longer mentioned in school materials. If a parent specifically asks for an alternative to SRE then ethics classes will be mentioned, if there are volunteers available at that school, and the parents can sign papers to get their children in to them. Otherwise, its Do Nothing! for those children. Meanwhile, the volunteers who organise and give those classes work hard to achieve actual education, whereas the religious tell bible stories.

Finally, when I last checked in to it a few years ago I noticed that the SRE/SRI classes were always being given by evangelical arms of the relevant churches, or is my memory confusing that with chaplaincy? Haven't checked.
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There are no good arguments for gods.

Last edited by Xeno; 5th June 2016 at 09:33 AM. Reason: age-related error potential
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#10
5th June 2016, 02:11 PM
 DanDare Religion or Reality, choose... Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Posts: 7,471
Re: Religious Indoctrination rides again

In Queensland there is a VAST difference between the policy and the practice.

Policy:

Children may be opted in to SRI

Parents are to be given the full program of instruction and background of the instructor

Where parents of a faith want an SRE program about their faith the school must ensure best efforts to make that program available from a qualified instructor

Reality :(at all state schools where I have been involved with parents, that's at least eight)

Children are place in a pentacostal style SRI without parental consent

Parents that complain are told they must opt-out in writing

If they do so their child is first simply moved to the back of the class and told to be quiet. If parents complain about this then on to step two.

Step two, the child is made to sit outside the principle's office, as if they have done something wrong. This prevents many parents from complaining further and they opt their child back in to SRI.

If parents complain about step two the principle will argue to the effect that "we don't have the staff to supervise them". If parents are tough enough not to fall for this they are then allowed to be in the library but may not do school work.

A year after going through all this it starts over again in four of the schools, where parents who find out are told that they must opt-out in writing each year.

Conclusion

The policy itself is a smoke screen. It allows what actually happens to continue because when you complain the regional directors point to the policy and say what's wrong with it? Few parents have the strength or time to combat this.

That's why I helped early on to form Queensland Parents for Secular State Schools, and they are starting to win.
__________________
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
-Thomas Jefferson

Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
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