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Education How it is and how it should be. The current system and those attempting to subvert it.

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  #51  
Old 2nd January 2017, 06:07 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: Learning styles

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SEG said View Post
Sorry, but the learning example you gave was all about using a mnemonic.
Yes, I know what it was SEG. Did you read what I wrote?

I don't think so because then you would have gone and looked it up and found that mnemonics are firmly within the category of rote-learning. All mnemonics are rote-learning, but not all rote-learning uses mnemonics.



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SEG said View Post
Rote learning
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SEG said View Post
would be (using your example) repeatedly saying or writing the French words descendre, rentrer, ascendre, partir, entrer, sortir until you had it memorised.
Factually, there are many, many ways to engage in rote-learning, but all of them operate on simplified repetition, as does the example I gave. Another key aspect of rote-learning is that the information retained is raw, unexplained, and has no particular significance unless it is processed. You can learn all the irregular verbs in French, but you still need to know how to conjugate them for the tense and how the irregular conjugate. This is the limitation of rote-learning.



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A Mnemonic device would be the word DRAPES, as it can form a visual association of the first letters of the irregular verbs you mentioned.

Of course you could use the mnemonic in rote learning if you repeatedly said it or wrote it, but I don't think that is what you meant?
Look, I can't be much clearer: mnemonics are a subclass of rote-learning. You could just look it up and quickly discover that it's true.



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Rote learning in isolation would be one of the worst ways to study, and I'm glad you went beyond that and used a mnemonic.
Not beyond, within. It was quite specifically and intentionally an example of rote-learning. I used to get paid to do this, SEG.



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I knew a guy in the fire brigade that studied that way for an officer's promotional programme and did it by brute force using rote learning. For example he learned over 100 definitions by writing each of them out in full 50 times each!

He ended up taking over a year to prepare him for his exam, where it should have taken him only 2-3 months using better techniques.
As I said, even rote learning has its place, and I gave an example. I can assure you of the efficacy of this because I still know it 20+ years later.

If you learn Italian, learn rote - it will save you an awful lot of unnecessary time - learn the rules by heart, apply the rules rigidly, and you can speak.

This doesn't, of course, work so well with English or other languages. However, rote-learning is useful when bulk information needs to be memorized to be processed as and when. You can't rote-learn complexity.


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There is a problem using your example though: What happens if you can't remember your mnemonic or whole list of mnemonics? If anyone is interested, I can send through some helpful information on this topic.

Yeah, I think this is part of your confusion here. The entire point of rote learning is that you batter it into your brain to such a degree it's not possible to forget it anymore than you could forget your own name. If you forgot it, you didn't actually learn it originally, and the solution is to do it 50 times more.

It's like using a piece of unworked timber rather than a laser scalpel, but it still has its uses, so long as one knows how to use them.

In a class, you can even make it fun, believe it or not. You can make songs out of it, use tones or accents on particular words in the pattern. If you're teaching children, you can make it a mobile activity like a Mexican Wave. It's not even absolutely true that rote-learning is shit, it's just restricted in its usage and tends to be boring thereby dulling the interest of the learner. But you can overcome that with a little imagination.
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  #52  
Old 2nd January 2017, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: Learning styles

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Spearthrower said View Post
As I said, even rote learning has its place, and I gave an example. I can assure you of the efficacy of this because I still know it 20+ years later.

If you learn Italian, learn rote - it will save you an awful lot of unnecessary time - learn the rules by heart, apply the rules rigidly, and you can speak.

This doesn't, of course, work so well with English or other languages. However, rote-learning is useful when bulk information needs to be memorized to be processed as and when. You can't rote-learn complexity.
I agree with you that mnemonics can be an effective tool, but rote learning in isolation can be vastly improved using memory training techniques. Can we at least agree on that?
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  #53  
Old 2nd January 2017, 07:17 PM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: Learning styles

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I agree with you that mnemonics can be an effective tool, but rote learning in isolation can be vastly improved using memory training techniques. Can we at least agree on that?
We could probably agree that the sky is blue too, but I doubt it would have anything more to do with what was being discussed. If you could suggest where I might have indicated any form of either disagreement, or even just a passing comment on the ability to train your memory, I'd be very surprised indeed.

All I am responding to is your suggestion that I am mixing things up, whereas I think my example was perfectly clear. Rote learning is just a blunt memorization, no intelligence - or at least understanding - really required. There are many methods or techniques to spice it up, not just in terms of interest, but also with application to effective ways to make your brain remember.

Turning the information into song, saying it in your head with a different accent or intonation, assigning information to words, letters, colours, famous people, or other strange diversions seems to work for some people. Any which way, mnemonics is just one method for repetitive rote-learning.

Again, to expand further (in the hope that this is now clarified beyond reasonable doubt), as I said there are times and places for rote-learning, however it can quickly become a tyranny rather than a learning experience. I've seen it both in Italian and Thai universities where even students of higher education are expected to just note what the teacher says, then repeat it back in written form if they want to pass. No synthesis of the information is required or even wanted - just repeat back accurately. Obviously, that's a complete waste of everyone's time, labour for the sake of it with no fruit to harvest at the end. As Pip said earlier, modern teaching often invests itself heavily in the communicative approach where the teacher tries to encourage the students to engage, even to the point of putting less emphasis on being correct, and more emphasis on formulating and defending individual ideas.
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  #54  
Old 2nd January 2017, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: Learning styles

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Spearthrower said View Post
We could probably agree that the sky is blue too, but I doubt it would have anything more to do with what was being discussed. If you could suggest where I might have indicated any form of either disagreement, or even just a passing comment on the ability to train your memory, I'd be very surprised indeed.

All I am responding to is your suggestion that I am mixing things up, whereas I think my example was perfectly clear. Rote learning is just a blunt memorization, no intelligence - or at least understanding - really required. There are many methods or techniques to spice it up, not just in terms of interest, but also with application to effective ways to make your brain remember.

Turning the information into song, saying it in your head with a different accent or intonation, assigning information to words, letters, colours, famous people, or other strange diversions seems to work for some people. Any which way, mnemonics is just one method for repetitive rote-learning.

Again, to expand further (in the hope that this is now clarified beyond reasonable doubt), as I said there are times and places for rote-learning, however it can quickly become a tyranny rather than a learning experience. I've seen it both in Italian and Thai universities where even students of higher education are expected to just note what the teacher says, then repeat it back in written form if they want to pass. No synthesis of the information is required or even wanted - just repeat back accurately. Obviously, that's a complete waste of everyone's time, labour for the sake of it with no fruit to harvest at the end. As Pip said earlier, modern teaching often invests itself heavily in the communicative approach where the teacher tries to encourage the students to engage, even to the point of putting less emphasis on being correct, and more emphasis on formulating and defending individual ideas.
It looks like you have got it all worked out. Congratulations!
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  #55  
Old 3rd January 2017, 03:06 AM
Spearthrower Spearthrower is offline
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Default Re: Learning styles

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SEG said View Post
It looks like you have got it all worked out. Congratulations!
It's just what happens when you do something professionally. You either 'work it out' or you don't do that job.
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  #56  
Old 7th January 2017, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: Learning styles

Hackenslash, I'm sure you overlooked my contributory post to this thread way before.

Please tell me what's your critical purpose behind conducting research on learning styles including our perspectives.
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  #57  
Old 7th January 2017, 09:37 PM
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Default Re: Learning styles

I didn't overlook it. The article is fairly close, although I'm working on 9 others at the same time. All will be revealed, and I think peeps will find it illuminating.
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  #58  
Old 9th January 2017, 12:00 PM
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Default Re: Learning styles

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hackenslash said View Post
The article is fairly close, although I'm working on 9 others at the same time. All will be revealed, and I think peeps will find it illuminating.
I am certainly looking forward to it.

Re my earlier comments: I wonder if I am conflating learning with communication.
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