How to answer such a loaded statement?...

[rayne]

Thats why people have no peace and no rest that's why u Josh are wrestling with it right now and let me ask you how much time have you thought about this subject how many times do u catch your self worrying about it sometimes stressing about it maybe even losing sleep from it.

You're "wrestling" with it because it's fucking stupid.

Josh you cannot interpret truth until u have the Holy spirit and that comes at a massive cost,

What is it some super secret decoder ring or something? If god is so smart, why couldn't make the bible clear and concise? Why make it all guesswork?

Peace bro

What a lame attempt at ending the discussion.

[Logic please]

Originally Posted by Loki

The quote you provide is simply a wordy version of the argument from ignorance, "I don't know, therefore god".

It's old and tired and does not work anymore.

Heh, did it ever work, really?

Originally Posted by MrWiltin

• I don't know whether C. S. Lewis is just misrepresenting an atheist argument here, or whether he actually saw things that way. It would be really naive of him if he actually did base his atheism on this notion of a cruel and unjust universe as he describes it.
  
• (Christian A): He couldnt get his head around the fact that if God was loving and kind, why is there pain and injustice in the world. Ill put up more of his thoughts to give you a better idea.
• (Christian B): Your very smart Josh, i like knowing that your thinking of questionsing everything, but there becomes a time when if u think u can learn every angle of life, purpose, God and history then youve just made youself your own god placing your logic above everything. Im sure if u truelly believe what u say, then u would b one depressed person because ther is no real hope or purpose for being alive then. Peace

I'm not sure how to answer this last reply, or whether it is even worth answering. Any suggestions?

Xtian B seems to really need the security-blankie of an imaginary sky-fairy and teh eternal life / heaven bollox.

A simple question to ask: there have been thousands of gods posited throughout history. What if xtian B's picked the wrong one to worship?

[Logic please]

(Christian B) Like I said Josh I love the way you think things through its very wise, you only have to look at history to see that there have many extremists who have mis lead people who have people doing crazy things including Christians but I wouldn't call them Christians. The trouble with only trusting your self is that with out wise council it often becomes over time foolish actions, ideas and outcomes and at the end of the day we cannot trust our selves as we are evil down to the core, our conscious is the only thing what gives us a little hint that we are doing wrong and there IS SOMETHING wrong. Thats why people have no peace and no rest that's why u Josh are wrestling with it right now and let me ask you how much time have you thought about this subject how many times do u catch your self worrying about it sometimes stressing about it maybe even losing sleep from it.
Josh you cannot interpret truth until u have the Holy spirit and that comes at a massive cost, it's costs you everything your life, because when you truly give up the argument what you have only with God then you are surrendering your self to something what created everything including the way you think, that's your personal relationship what you and him share. Until then your comprehension your brain is your God and that will be your wall, but we all have walls Josh, mine was drugs so I know that it's alright to be wrong. But tomorrow's not promised to anyone. Peace bro (my emphases)

The red bolded bit is a No True Scotsman fallacy. The speaker has no evidenced basis for defining what constitutes a "true xtian", and therefore unilaterally deciding what falls outside that.

The blue bit is merely presumptuous evangelical claptrap, IMHO. How does s/he know what your innermost thoughts on any of those matters might be?

The purple section is Argument From Ignorant Personal Experience (a combo of Argument from Ignorance and Argument from Personal Experience).

Bluntly: the philospohic burden of proof falls to those making positive ontological claims, such as for an existent god or gods. It's not enough to assert that gods are hiding in gaps in your personal revelation or can't be seen through your alleged hubris... credible evidence for any claimed existence of gods is required from the claimant, methinks.

Any god that can't show itself through a bit of healthy skepticism isn't worth a toss, for mine.

[Goldenmane]

It isn't fucking wise to proclaim oneself an authority to listen to whilst writing in a manner akin to a drunk opossum scribbling in crayon.

That, quite seriously, is my answer. Speak English, motherfucker.

That's the first step I would demand of Christian B, and for a very simple but good reason: if they can't get their head around the idea of putting in the effort to communicate effectively, then I have no reason to think they have anything worth saying. I certainly don't feel an obligation to try to formulate their argument for them just so I can point out how utterly fucking stupid it is.

Being told by someone who can't formulate a fucking sentence that I'm wise, as a prelude to them telling me where I'm wrong, is about as appealing as giving a fuck what Gordon Ramsey thinks about my grasp of Drunk Eight Immortals Boxing. The entire universe doesn't contain a reason for me to give a shit.

[MrWiltin]

@Mr Black, I think you're right. He hasn't established a single thing, he is essentially telling a cool story and appealing to my credulity.

[rayne]

He might benefit from an education around what atheism means and how morals aren't dictated by the label a person adopts.

[Loki]

the "Euthyphro dilemma"

"Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious? Or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?"

This has caused much anguish and gnashing of teeth by theists since Plato wrote it, somewhere around 400 BCE.

It's very simple, as most good questions are; is a moral act good because god makes it so, or does god like it because it is good.

Good luck on getting a coherent or reasonably simple response from an apologist.

[DanDare]

Turtles all the way down.
This anecdote comes from Stephen Hawking in A Brief History Of Time.

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.

At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise."

The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?"

"You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down."