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  #51  
Old 20th March 2017, 11:45 AM
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Default Re: The Delusions of Atheists

^The quote from Einstein about a child entering a huge library is one of my favourite quotes ever. Top two or three at least.

And it is probably even more apt today. The scale of what we don't know and don't understand seems greater than ever.
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  #52  
Old 20th March 2017, 01:15 PM
surreptitious57 surreptitious57 is offline
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Default Re: The Delusions of Atheists

One does not have to believe in God to be in awe of the universe. That is a human emotion which any one can
experience. Regardless of whether or not they have a belief system. Using science to understand how it works
does not detract from that in any way at all. I would say it does the opposite. It makes it even more awesome
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  #53  
Old 20th March 2017, 01:39 PM
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Default Re: The Delusions of Atheists

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surreptitious57 said View Post
One does not have to believe in God to be in awe of the universe. That is a human emotion which any one can
experience. Regardless of whether or not they have a belief system. Using science to understand how it works
does not detract from that in any way at all. I would say it does the opposite. It makes it even more awesome
Indeed. Science gives us a reasonably sound knowledge of the universe and life. But as creatures who have an "intentional stance" (Dennett) we will always look for someone to thank for our good fortune or blame for our woes. [Enter God and the Devil, stage left].

We are all winners [and by we I mean bacteria, trees, humans-everything living]. Our cognition tells us that our heritage is an unbroken line stretching back nearly four billions of years, and yet we exist only a geological instant.

Even if we can grasp all that intellectually, the emotions cannot catch up, so for most of us, religion will be here to stay. Unfortunately, but there it is. I think. Even in the science community, and specifically even among evolutionary biologists, there are those that imagine there must be "something else", or "something more".

So even if scientists [intellectually] understand the power of natural processes [like natural selection] to create order and function, their guts urge them to believe otherwise. Of course, as Carl Sagan once said that we should not be tempted to think with our "guts" :-

Quote:
“But I try not to think with my gut. If I'm serious about understanding the world, thinking with anything besides my brain, as tempting as that might be, is likely to get me into trouble.”
But we do it anyway. At least sometimes. And if that is true of scientists, it is certainly true for laypersons as well.
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Last edited by Darwinsbulldog; 20th March 2017 at 01:40 PM.
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  #54  
Old 20th March 2017, 02:30 PM
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Default Re: The Delusions of Atheists

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I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can describe myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds.May I reply with a parable? The human
mind no matter how highly trained cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling in many
different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are
written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books in a mysterious order which it does not comprehend but only dimly suspects. That it seems to
me is the attitude of the human mind even the greatest and most cultured toward God. We see a universe marvellously arranged obeying certain laws but we under
stand the laws only dimly our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinozas Pantheism. I admire even
more his contribution to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body
as one not as two separate things - Albert Einstein
The 'problem' was created by our limited minds Albert. Imagining a problem we cannot solve doesn't somehow make it automatically significant or important.
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  #55  
Old 20th March 2017, 05:17 PM
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THWOTH said View Post
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surreptitious57 said View Post
I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can describe myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds.May I reply with a parable? The human
mind no matter how highly trained cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling in many
different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are
written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books in a mysterious order which it does not comprehend but only dimly suspects. That it seems to
me is the attitude of the human mind even the greatest and most cultured toward God. We see a universe marvellously arranged obeying certain laws but we under
stand the laws only dimly our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinozas Pantheism. I admire even
more his contribution to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body
as one not as two separate things - Albert Einstein
The 'problem' was created by our limited minds Albert. Imagining a problem we cannot solve doesn't somehow make it automatically significant or important.
It reminds me of those records which cannot be played on record player X, in the Hofstadter book.

Or the non-existent feller and him making the rock so big, he cannot lift it.
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  #56  
Old 21st March 2017, 12:19 AM
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It reminds me of those records which cannot be played on record player X, in the Hofstadter book.
Jesus Christ, The Irreverent Mr. Black, did you read this synthesis/exposition all the way through yourself?

You are a better man than I. I scanned sufficient to get Hofstadter's apperception of the algorithms in Godel, Escher and Bach's output, their apparent connectivity and also as appreciated by Carroll the logician and doctor of nonsense and latent Humbert Humbert.

I just couldn't stand to read it closely. It must be the ADHD, whereby I experience creeping paralysis as though I'd drunk the hemlock. I will have to return to this challenge in the ongoing endeavour to overtrump the infantilism.

Perhaps my subconscious intuition is spot on. The guy has Asperger's.

I have been listening closely to Axis Bold As Love and Electric Ladyland on cassette with surround sound, while also attending to the road..

I took a long but painful walk on the beach, over the headland and the tracks through the heath to 13th Beach and back.

Choose life. A dog loves it.
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  #57  
Old 21st March 2017, 05:14 AM
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The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
It reminds me of those records which cannot be played on record player X, in the Hofstadter book.
Jesus Christ, The Irreverent Mr. Black, did you read this synthesis/exposition all the way through yourself?

You are a better man than I. I scanned sufficient to get Hofstadter's apperception of the algorithms in Godel, Escher and Bach's output, their apparent connectivity and also as appreciated by Carroll the logician and doctor of nonsense and latent Humbert Humbert.
I read it years ago, at the insistence of the even-nerdier other half of my very nerdy synth-and-other-things band. Some bits of the text obviously fell into my head and stuck.
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(snip)
Perhaps my subconscious intuition is spot on. The guy has Asperger's.
Me, Godel, Escher, Bach, or Hofstadter? I can only speak for me, andthat wouldbe "yes".
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Choose life. A dog loves it.
I was just joking with herself the other day about getting Dog v2.0 a George Michael style "CHEWS LIFE" t-shirt.
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