Go Back   AFA Forums > Secularism and Social Issues > Politics

Politics Political issues which help or hinder our society

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #271  
Old 23rd April 2017, 09:59 PM
pipbarber pipbarber is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,917
Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

Quote:
DanDare said View Post
Are these the same values as 10 years ago? 20? Do we have to update the test by usage every decade?

Democratic process - people in Oz complain about it a lot. One Nation aren't big supporters of our processes, nor are the "sovereign citizens".
I've never met a 'sovereign citizen,' but having briefly read about them unless they are self sufficient hippies they are just hypocrites and illogical. We moan about our democratic processes but the louder the moaner the further they seem to be to coming up with a viable alternative.

Quote:
obligatory education for under 16s - but there are groups who say "choice is all" and what about religious schools rather than secular ones?
Religious schools in oz still have curriculum benchmarks that have to be reached, there is at least that. What groups exactly are saying 'choice is all' in Australia regarding education?
Quote:
medicare the libs keep trying to get rid of it
That's an emotional statement that is not supported by a shred of evidence Dan. Ideologically, there are probably people on the conservative side that may entertain the prospect but it is, at this time, politically inexpedient - and long may that remain the case. This is jumping at shadows.
Quote:
welfare - the libs and libertarians keep trying to get rid of it
austudy - and again blah blah

If these were part of the Australian Values test then a big chunk of our current citizens should get chucked out now!
These are what we have to support and fight for. Even if we lose. I'll stick by them as a bunch of things that can be clearly articulated as Australian values.

I know they're under threat, that is all the more reason they ought to be restated.
Reply With Quote
Like Strato liked this post
  #272  
Old 23rd April 2017, 10:01 PM
Strato's Avatar
Strato Strato is offline
Tanto Nomini Nullum par Elogium
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: The Bellarine, Geelong.
Posts: 4,719
Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

Talk of 'values' from these people is the rhetoric of populism.

What are the values of those who get involved in the AFA forum?

Surely one thing deemed important is being informed, which takes time, intellectual honesty.

The forum Topics reflect a way of thinking which needs to become universal.

Working on that.
__________________
It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
Winston Churchill.
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 23rd April 2017, 11:09 PM
DanDare's Avatar
DanDare DanDare is offline
Religion or Reality, choose...
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 7,219
Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

Quote:
pipbarber said View Post
These are what we have to support and fight for. Even if we lose. I'll stick by them as a bunch of things that can be clearly articulated as Australian values.

I know they're under threat, that is all the more reason they ought to be restated.
But that's the whole point Pip, restated by who? The people who are saying right now that the values should be part of a citizenship test are the ones who I believe will pick a list that I don't agree with, and neither would you. They are ones who would be thrown out of citisenship if we made our values, that we hold in common, a necessary element to being a citizen.
__________________
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
-Thomas Jefferson

Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old Yesterday, 06:43 PM
pipbarber pipbarber is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,917
Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

Just a follow up to the discussion regarding English language requirements for citizenship. It seems an IELTS 6.0 across all disciplines (not an average) will be required. This is too high in my opinion. I think a 4.5 or 5 averaged score would enable people from any language group or educational background to succeed, with a few lessons in some cases, but by no means would it be overly onerous.

The fact is that the average Arabic speakers would need to invest in months and even years of lessons to achieve a 6.0 in writing. Same with Hindi speakers, who'd probably get to 6.0 in speaking quite quickly but not when it comes to writing. German speakers on the other hand....

I have no problem with the principle of an English language test. It is a statement on the fact that without functional English, marginalisation from mainstream society is more likely it therefore adds incentive to improve language skills. However, by setting the bar this high it is quite apparent that the government is simply using the IELTS test as a national gate keeping device. It's just wrong headed.

One more point i'd make about this. I'm quite certain that 40-50% of native speaking Australians would fail to get a 6.0 in all skills on an IELTS test! It's fucking difficult. The reading and listening sections are designed to trick the test taker, they also require trained levels of concentration under high pressure time restricted conditions. There's got to be something wrong about expecting people who want to become citizens to use English more proficiently than half the existing citizens do.
Reply With Quote
Like two dogs, Strato liked this post
  #275  
Old Yesterday, 07:19 PM
two dogs's Avatar
two dogs two dogs is offline
Why do you ask ...?
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Shell Cove, NSW
Posts: 8,718
Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

Quote:
pipbarber said View Post
Just a follow up to the discussion regarding English language requirements for citizenship. It seems an IELTS 6.0 across all disciplines (not an average) will be required. This is too high in my opinion. I think a 4.5 or 5 averaged score would enable people from any language group or educational background to succeed, with a few lessons in some cases, but by no means would it be overly onerous.

The fact is that the average Arabic speakers would need to invest in months and even years of lessons to achieve a 6.0 in writing. Same with Hindi speakers, who'd probably get to 6.0 in speaking quite quickly but not when it comes to writing. German speakers on the other hand....

I have no problem with the principle of an English language test. It is a statement on the fact that without functional English, marginalisation from mainstream society is more likely it therefore adds incentive to improve language skills. However, by setting the bar this high it is quite apparent that the government is simply using the IELTS test as a national gate keeping device. It's just wrong headed.

One more point i'd make about this. I'm quite certain that 40-50% of native speaking Australians would fail to get a 6.0 in all skills on an IELTS test! It's fucking difficult. The reading and listening sections are designed to trick the test taker, they also require trained levels of concentration under high pressure time restricted conditions. There's got to be something wrong about expecting people who want to become citizens to use English more proficiently than half the existing citizens do.
Yeah, no, look, I mean, you know, it's all good!
__________________
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; ..."

"
Beer, if drunk with moderation, softens the temper, cheers the spirit and promotes health."
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

"Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about it."

Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)
Reply With Quote
Laugh at Strato laughed at this post
  #276  
Old Yesterday, 07:20 PM
two dogs's Avatar
two dogs two dogs is offline
Why do you ask ...?
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Shell Cove, NSW
Posts: 8,718
Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

and, yeah.
__________________
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; ..."

"
Beer, if drunk with moderation, softens the temper, cheers the spirit and promotes health."
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

"Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about it."

Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)
Reply With Quote
  #277  
Old Yesterday, 07:33 PM
pipbarber pipbarber is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,917
Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

yeah, nah, yous mean? Fuck.
Reply With Quote
  #278  
Old Yesterday, 07:55 PM
two dogs's Avatar
two dogs two dogs is offline
Why do you ask ...?
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Shell Cove, NSW
Posts: 8,718
Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

I'd not heard of IELTS. I downloaded a sample about listening, and I'm not sure that I could answer all the questions after hearing the conversation once? It seemed more of a memory test, than a language comprehension test?
__________________
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; ..."

"
Beer, if drunk with moderation, softens the temper, cheers the spirit and promotes health."
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

"Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about it."

Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)
Reply With Quote
  #279  
Old Yesterday, 08:25 PM
pipbarber pipbarber is offline
AFA Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,917
Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

To be honest, IELTS is an intelligence test. It's also a test of general knowledge, current affairs and your education level. Here's a sample question from part 2 writing task. You have 40 minutes or so (depending on how long part 1 took you) to write 250 words on this question. You need an opening paragraph, main body paragraph(s) and a concluding paragraph.

Nowadays computer education is compulsory for young learners in most schools. Do you think this is necessary or will children acquire these skills naturally from their daily interaction with technology everywhere? Provide your opinion and use specific reasons and examples to support your answer.

With at least some tertiary education, most native speakers would easily get 8+ Without tertiary education, probably less than that, but you see my point about education and general knowledge.

The listening section is the hardest because if you miss an answer you can easily become disorientated in regard to where the recording is at. Rather than listening, candidates start skim reading the questions desperately trying to locate the next answer. It can go downhill from there very quickly. This happens to native speakers too.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +11. The time now is 12:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.