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  #21  
Old 20th April 2017, 12:07 AM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

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stylofone said View Post
I got one thing wrong, apparently the SNP already hold all but a tiny number of Scottish seats, so gains for them aren't really going to be a thing to watch for.

When the last Scottish independence referendum was on I was sort of swayed by the sentimental argument in favour of staying together. But after Brexit the feeling is more "fuck you, little England". Not that I have any stake in it personally.

Although generally it is disappointing as an Australian to see the "mother country" going down the tubes.
Screw it, just fucking invade York again, that'll show em you mean business.

But seriously "you have to get Westminster approval first" is just a condition imposed by a conquering country. If Scotland closed the border, told England to go and get fucked and declared independence what exactly is England going to do, invade? Yeah right!
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  #22  
Old 20th April 2017, 12:06 PM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

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Loki said View Post
Even from that link though the Scottish parliament can only ask the UK parliament to hold a referendum under a 'Section 30 order', which I am assuming is the legal trigger for a independence referendum. So the power is really in the hands of the UK government.

Also just because the Scottish parliament supports the referendum, it doesn't mean that it will necessarily translate into a referendum win. Most polls since May took over have the 'No' option as having a significant lead.
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  #23  
Old 20th April 2017, 12:45 PM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

The Brits need another great patriotic war to unite them. Or maybe just a little war, like the Falklands. Works every time. Maggie Thatcher knew what she was doing, don't you worry about that.

What's the harm?
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  #24  
Old 20th April 2017, 12:46 PM
nutmeg nutmeg is offline
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

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stevebrooks said View Post

But seriously "you have to get Westminster approval first" is just a condition imposed by a conquering country.
England did not conquer Scotland. The king of Scotland inherited the English throne in 1603. They remained as two separate countries for over 100 years until the parliaments of both countries agreed to union.
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  #25  
Old 20th April 2017, 01:34 PM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

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nutmeg said View Post
England did not conquer Scotland. The king of Scotland inherited the English throne in 1603. They remained as two separate countries for over 100 years until the parliaments of both countries agreed to union.
Well, it might not be as simple as all that. Under feudal systems, the kings ruled by divine right, but needed the implied or explicit consent of the Lords, because they collectively, controlled more land than the Royals. Although a king or queen owns ALL the land, in practice feudal lords had local power over the land, and hence taxation [although they would give some of that revenue to the king, partly by obligation, and partly to gain favour and influence at court.

In Germany around the 800's Henry Fowler [the founder of what would eventually become the Carolingian Empire] was VOTED into his office by the Lords. In other words he was a first among equals. [A basically merit-based system, for the most part-the most successful warlord and administrator became the sovereign. A type of democracy really, among the elite. It gave Henry explicit rule by consent, not by divine right, primarily, although all lords including the king, believed in rule by divine right.

In other areas, like Britain, rule was by hereditary by divine right only. [But of course, since all nobles believed in their divine right to rule, it was not all that rare for weak monarch was soon deposed by war, etc.

The basic problem all monarchs had was revenue, especially if they had grandiose ideas of glory, and conducted expensive wars, and this was the basic reason why parliaments emerged, especially after plague pandemics, when labour become scarce, and hence gave more common people power.

The other thread that we must recognise is that [early on] nations consisted of tribes, not totally connected to specific geographical areas. Eventually specific tribes became associated with specific areas as the feudal era come to a close.

So how we define "Scotland", or "England" or "Wales" or "Ireland" is complex.

In theory, as soon as each nation unified, that became a country, BUT wars, alliances, marriages between nobles etc, made national and sub-national boundaries in a state of flux. When did England unify? Do we take the unification of Anglo-Saxon England as the date, or the Norman conquest, or what?

Granted, "England", of all the nations that were to become the UK had been the first to start to unify, and so had the advantage of "divide and rule" when dealing with the rest of Britain, and who were the "Scots" anyway? The Picts? Anglo-Saxons? Etc?

And all the invasions, including Roman, Viking, and the Anglo-Saxons themselves.

The history of Britain is a tangled bank, a mish-mash of ethnic groups, cultures, religions and customs.

Certainly there were wars for control of the British Isles, in a "regional" ["county"] "national" and "international" sense, but how we define each war as a war of conquest or "civil war" or rebellion, etc is not at all clear in most cases. IMHO.
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Last edited by Darwinsbulldog; 20th April 2017 at 01:35 PM.
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  #26  
Old 20th April 2017, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

A good summary DB.

I would also like to point out that the ethnic Scotland/England divide is not clear cut all besides the 300 years of mixing since the Act of the Union. Most probably don't realise that the Lowland Scots are primarily of Anglo-Saxon stock, with the Kingdom of Northumbria controlling as far north as Lothian in the 8th century. Therefore they are more closely related to people in northern England than the Highland Scots, who are mostly of Gaelic stock.

To further supplement your point it was very common for Scottish lords and even kings to hold both English and Scottish lands, even before the the English crown passed to King James I.
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  #27  
Old 25th April 2017, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

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stevebrooks said View Post
But seriously "you have to get Westminster approval first" is just a condition imposed by a conquering country. If Scotland closed the border, told England to go and get fucked and declared independence what exactly is England going to do, invade? Yeah right!

Scotland could do this but, it would utterly fuck them for getting into the EU. Spain absolutely would veto a Scottish application into the EU (as Spain did for Kosovo), if Scotland went "independent "in this fashion. Spain absolutely does not want "break away states" to have legitimacy in the EU, because of what Catalonia would do. Spain has made clear that it will only support Scotland joining the EU if it's independence is legally above board.


So Scotland has to go independent legitimately and through whatever legal channels Westminster agrees, if it wants to re-join the EU after leaving the UK.
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  #28  
Old 25th April 2017, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

They will have to refortify Hadrian's Wall for the true British to keep out the Celtic fringe barbarian and for the noble Highlanders and loyal Lowlanders to keep out the uitlander hungry refugee hordes ever since they so stupidly went Brexit.
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  #29  
Old 25th April 2017, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

The Scottish issue will hinge on the French election, surely. If France jumps ship Europe is dead and scottish independence will be a bit like Nimbin independence...
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  #30  
Old 26th April 2017, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: Make Britain Great Again

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Strato said View Post
They will have to refortify Hadrian's Wall for the true British to keep out the Celtic fringe barbarian and for the noble Highlanders and loyal Lowlanders to keep out the uitlander hungry refugee hordes ever since they so stupidly went Brexit.
This is perfectly true. The Romans had to build the wall because the Scottish were a far superior race [Because Nessie, peace be upon her].

The only downside to Scottish perfection was they were just as enthusiastic about fighting each other as any external enemy!

That, and haggis, lead to their fall from grace.
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