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  #41  
Old 9th March 2017, 07:46 PM
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There are three factors of production: land, labour and capital. Workers have traditionally had a bargaining position of sorts, in that labour was needed to operate the capital.

For wealthy capitalists their biggest controllable cost is usually labour, but in recent years it has become increasingly possible to reduce labour costs by offshoring production and through automation and robotisation. Where we used to have humans (labour) manning an assembly line (capital), we now have robots (capital) manning an assembly line (capital). Or we send iron ore and coal and other resources to China and Thailand and they send us TVs, cars and washing machines.

Less demand for labour in a market economy means at least one thing: cheaper labour. Which means more money in the bank accounts of the already very wealthy. But less money in the pockets of workers, and almost no money in the pockets of former workers whose jobs no longer exist. If this had happened overnight there would be rioting in the streets. But it has happened over a period of decades, while politicians and economists have been telling us that it's for our own good, and a younger generation has grown up with much lower expectations in terms of prosperity and happiness. The problem, for now, is that there are too many of us still drinking the Kool-Aid.
Which is all good for the owners of capital until no one has money to buy the consumer products.
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  #42  
Old 10th March 2017, 01:26 AM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

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Previously, improvements in productivity accrued wealth to the industrialists and benefit to the worker. My simple clothing example describes this clearly. People left the land for the mill towns in the Midlands of England for one reason: money. They earned more and could acquire more in a town than a farm. With money, they could buy more of the clothing they were producing for less cost than before.
Prior to the Industrial Revolution, cottage industry sustained the countryside folk. The husband worked the handloom while the wife operated the spinning wheel. The merchant delivered the flax and then the came raw cotton and collected the cloth they turned it into. They worked probably 6 hours a day. They had a plot for their garden the cow, chickens, pigs. There were the fairs and country market. Time was told by the crowing of the cock and the sundial. They subsisted sustainably.

With the harnessing of steam to drive factories with spinning jennies and flying shuttles, technology ever improving, and more labour pouring in than could be employed, manufacturing textiles for the wealthy and for export from cotton grown in America from the African slave trade pouring into England with mercantilism, the cottage industry couldn't compete in output or quality. The merchant stopped coming. The cottagers simply abandoned their humble abode and life and went to the dark satanic mills, hat in hand. The successful farmers increased their holdings.

It's in The Conditions of the Working Class in England, Friedrich Engels (written 1844 - 1845), Penguin Modern Classics. An awesome work and written at age 24 after 20 months intense investigation. Engels was Karl Marx's collaborator. The description of the abject poverty, insecurity and squalor of the working class in these filthy towns required an Engels to describe, one amazingly motivated and humanist individual.

Chartism originated, driven by the proletariat, eventually resulted politically in regulations on worker conditions and pay.

As Engels demonstrates, the capitalist is motivated by growth and competitive advantage, not concern for the people. Nick Hanauer's warning to fellow plutocrats, his case is that raising wages is an economic expedient. Big business can't lose. That makes perfect sense.

I guess that's how it has to be. Communism doesn't work. China is merely not a democracy.
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Last edited by Loki; 10th March 2017 at 10:54 AM.
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  #43  
Old 10th March 2017, 10:31 AM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

^^^ Like, other than the quote fail... ;-)
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Old 10th March 2017, 10:55 AM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

Quote flail flixed.

hopefully.
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  #45  
Old 10th March 2017, 11:04 AM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

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Quote flail flixed.

hopefully.
LOL.. Strato was quoting and responding to Sieveboy not me...
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  #46  
Old 10th March 2017, 11:30 AM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

I dispute the idea that "communism doesn't work". It has not worked in the past because of capitalist right wing reactions to socialist-communist governments. The reason the USSR became a one-party state was due to the civil war, in part funded and assisted by European/Christian/ Capitalistic nations.
The second reason was there was no way to regulate goods and services efficiently in the economy. Modern computer systems controlling supply and demand would be able to allocate resources efficiently-far more efficiently than the stock market, which is driven by greed and fear.

This is not apologetics for the excesses observed in socialist/communist states, but if "Western Liberal Democracies" had exercised a little more common-sense, most of the socialist states that turned nasty might have turned out all right.

The USA is the most rabidly anti-left country in the world. It is so paranoid it even started the McCarthy witch-hunt in the 1950's where it saw a commie under every bed. Not to mention the Cuban missile crisis. Castro's state was as much a child of the USA's stupid foreign policy as any internal factors in Cuba itself.

Even basic Obama type medical care, taken for granted in nearly every developed country in the world, is seen as a god-damned communist plot. These proud republicans would rather endure the shame of Medicines Sans Frountiers come in and treat their poor like they were a starving African nation than have even a tiny medical safety net for their citizens. It is so disgusting.

Americans are so blinded by the word socialist, they got themselves into a war with Vietnam. The Vietnamese only wanted their own country back, but no, the US backed French colonial ambitions and sold it to the world as a fight against nasty communism. Jesus Fucking Christ, anyone would back communism if opposed the continual annexation of a country by various other powers like: China, Cambodia, Japan, France, and then the USA and friends.

The enemies of the Right are not born, but made.
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  #47  
Old 10th March 2017, 12:56 PM
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Prior to the Industrial Revolution, cottage industry sustained the countryside folk. The husband worked the handloom while the wife operated the spinning wheel. The merchant delivered the flax and then the came raw cotton and collected the cloth they turned it into. They worked probably 6 hours a day. They had a plot for their garden the cow, chickens, pigs. There were the fairs and country market. Time was told by the crowing of the cock and the sundial. They subsisted sustainably.

With the harnessing of steam to drive factories with spinning jennies and flying shuttles, technology ever improving, and more labour pouring in than could be employed, manufacturing textiles for the wealthy and for export from cotton grown in America from the African slave trade pouring into England with mercantilism, the cottage industry couldn't compete in output or quality. The merchant stopped coming. The cottagers simply abandoned their humble abode and life and went to the dark satanic mills, hat in hand. The successful farmers increased their holdings.

It's in The Conditions of the Working Class in England, Friedrich Engels (written 1844 - 1845), Penguin Modern Classics. An awesome work and written at age 24 after 20 months intense investigation. Engels was Karl Marx's collaborator. The description of the abject poverty, insecurity and squalor of the working class in these filthy towns required an Engels to describe, one amazingly motivated and humanist individual.

Chartism originated, driven by the proletariat, eventually resulted politically in regulations on worker conditions and pay.

As Engels demonstrates, the capitalist is motivated by growth and competitive advantage, not concern for the people. Nick Hanauer's warning to fellow plutocrats, his case is that raising wages is an economic expedient. Big business can't lose. That makes perfect sense.

I guess that's how it has to be. Communism doesn't work. China is merely not a democracy.
I am acutely aware it took 300 odd years to address many of the issues with the industrial revolution and we seem intent at the moment on forgetting some of the lessons from more important issues as we speak.

However, your opening comments are almost revisionist. I doubt they worked a 6 hour day, they more likely worked the daylight hours. Education was negligible as was access to healthcare. You would have had Sunday off for church and that's about it and if your crop failed one year... Well maybe you only lost your youngest born.
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Old 10th March 2017, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

Indeed it is simplistic to nostalgically portray country life as idyllic. I don't. The Industrial Revolution was an inevitability and now we have computers, a time of protracted peace, we're curing cancer. You can't stop progress. It is awesome to live now. I am reading Homo Deus, A Brief History of Tomorrow, Yuval Noah Harari 2015. I read Sapiens, a Brief History of Humankind by Harari. Some books.

But the Industrial Revolution was a time of unspeakable exploitation of the working class, pouring into the towns which became cities. Engels' project is to expose the capitalist mentality. Trump and the Republicans' agenda is to eliminate corporate tax and oppose the $15 an hour award.

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  #49  
Old 10th March 2017, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

I concur DBd. I have been curious as to your views on these socio-economic subjects. You have hinted previously.

Communism still could work today though humans, males especially, some of them, are motivated by competition, rivalry, the possibility of gaining advantage, amassing a fortune and having power without limit. Sharing a tractor didn't motivate the collectivised neighbouring Soviet farmers. 'We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us.'

But the great majority want to do their job to the best standard and fulfil Mazlow's hierarchy of needs it seems. Not enough want to self actualise into being well read..

I would welcome the vision of equity communism advances and the initiation of it. Though I have nothing to lose, it is just and right anyway. The disparity grows apace. It is obviously an evil, even obvious to Murdoch or a James Packer.

I have taken the precaution of sticking a bit of masking tape over my laptop's webcam eye.

I can't see how true socialism will come to pass. So I suppose Nick Hanauer's solution to averting the pitchforks is actually more realistic and as he says, for the profit and security of the plutocrat and capitalism itself it is expedient to raise wages significantly, to generate consumption and means for all though tellingly he doesn't recommend wages rise as much as possible now does he?

It's not like he's your empathic humanist idealist altruist with his big yacht and all. He's a bit more normal.

'Lord how the money rolls in, rolls in.'
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  #50  
Old 10th March 2017, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: Why the tax system favors gentrification

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Strato said View Post
I concur DBd. I have been curious as to your views on these socio-economic subjects. You have hinted previously.

Communism still could work today though humans, males especially, some of them, are motivated by competition, rivalry, the possibility of gaining advantage, amassing a fortune and having power without limit. Sharing a tractor didn't motivate the collectivised neighbouring Soviet farmers. 'We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us.'

But the great majority want to do their job to the best standard and fulfil Mazlow's hierarchy of needs it seems. Not enough want to self actualise into being well read..

I would welcome the vision of equity communism advances and the initiation of it. Though I have nothing to lose, it is just and right anyway. The disparity grows apace. It is obviously an evil, even obvious to Murdoch or a James Packer.

I have taken the precaution of sticking a bit of masking tape over my laptop's webcam eye.

I can't see how true socialism will come to pass. So I suppose Nick Hanauer's solution to averting the pitchforks is actually more realistic and as he says, for the profit and security of the plutocrat and capitalism itself it is expedient to raise wages significantly, to generate consumption and means for all though tellingly he doesn't recommend wages rise as much as possible now does he?

It's not like he's your empathic humanist idealist altruist with his big yacht and all. He's a bit more normal.

'Lord how the money rolls in, rolls in.'
There is no reason why a communist state could not introduce some aspects of private incentive to fine-tune things. In fact this was done in the former USSR [to give farmers incentive to produce more] and in the PRC today. [The Chinese have been keen and cany traders for thousands of yes, and so the PRC govt was wise to adopt some measure of privatisation in the market.

The trick is getting the mix right.
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