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Old 7th November 2015, 03:06 PM
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Default Dissecting ptutt's assertions

New member ptutt posted the following in their Introduction:

Quote:
there are 2 main reasons that make me faithful:
1. The Christian world view makes more sense than an atheistic world view. It explains why there is something rather than nothing. It removes the necessity of infinite regression of causation and time. It explains why moral values are objective. It explains how free will can exist. It explains why following Christian values work. It explains how Jesus can have more impact than any other in history.
2. I believe because I believe, aside from evidence. Just as I believe the world is real, just as I believe my memory to be true (at least some of it) aside from evidence, I believe. I see this as the foundation of belief. If God exists...He created us in such a way as to know Him aside from evidence.
This is the thread for examining these claims.
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Old 7th November 2015, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: Dissecting ptutt's assertions

Do we have to? Looks like standard bullshit claims to me, nothin' new there bro.
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Old 7th November 2015, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: Dissecting ptutt's assertions

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ptutt said View Post
I hope to engage in fruitful and mutually edifying discussion. Kind regards, Phil
Hi Phil, I always hope for the same.
Quote:
ptutt said
1. The Christian world view makes more sense than an atheistic world view...
This broad statement and the baseless points beyond don't really address any single thing apart from your own opinion, which we all have.

Did you want to discuss a single topic and see if things can stay on track? Otherwise your broad and fuzzy world view is going to send things haywire.
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Old 7th November 2015, 03:48 PM
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Default Re: Dissecting ptutt's assertions

Quote:
there are 2 main reasons that make me faithful:
1. The Christian world view makes more sense than an atheistic world view. It explains why there is something rather than nothing. It removes the necessity of infinite regression of causation and time. It explains why moral values are objective. It explains how free will can exist. It explains why following Christian values work. It explains how Jesus can have more impact than any other in history.
Whoa, nelly. That's some concentrated bollocks-juice you're spraying about the place. Let's take a moment to examine it in detail.

Quote:
The Christian world view makes more sense than an atheistic world view.
Well, that's just an assertion, and assertions start with ass. So we'll be charitable and fucking ignore it for the moment.

Quote:
It explains why there is something rather than nothing.
Actually, it doesn't. A claim - and an unsubstantiated one at that - is not an explanation. They are two very different things. A claim is simply something one asserts. An explanation involves such things as mechanisms and causal chains and evidence.

What you are confusing for an explanation is simply the claim 'God did it'. There's no evidence involved, merely comfort. Christianity - and many other religions, for that matter - is all about feeling that you're special. Centre of the universe special.

You aren't special. You aren't the centre of the universe. There's not the slightest bit of evidence for anything in the Christian grab-bag of mythos, especially the notion that a multi-omni creator made this entire fucking universe just so a tiny number of a single species of suspiciously monkey-like fuckwits on an obscure rock could worship the fucker.

Quote:
2. I believe because I believe, aside from evidence. Just as I believe the world is real, just as I believe my memory to be true (at least some of it) aside from evidence, I believe. I see this as the foundation of belief. If God exists...He created us in such a way as to know Him aside from evidence.
What the living fuck is that supposed to mean?

Look, when someone asks you what the time is, do you check a fucking clock, or do you just say whatever you think?

There are folks out there, Christian folks, who take Mark 16:18 so literally and so seriously that they routinely wave around pissed-off snakes. Plenty of them die doing it, too. I'd say that's evidence that what they believe is probably not aligned with reality. But it's in their fucking Bible. In your Bible too, for that matter.

When was the last time you picked up an asp, drank drain cleaner, or performed a miraculous (and verified) healing?

Because Mark is very specific about this.
Quote:
And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:17-18)
In fact, that's your fucking holy book right there proclaiming that there will be precisely these forms of evidence to show the truth of Jesus belief. Your holy fucking text explicitly tells us that there will be evidence, and to look for it.

The whole 'knowing without evidence' thing is not only stupid, it's anti-Biblical. Jesus Shitting Christ, even Paul was all about the magic snake-immunity:

Quote:
And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita. And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold. And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand. And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live. And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm. Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
I don't know if this motherfucker's religious, but judging by the evidence, you should be following him:
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Old 7th November 2015, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Dissecting ptutt's assertions

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Darwinsbulldog said View Post
Do we have to? Looks like standard bullshit claims to me, nothin' new there bro.
Of course we don't. But it's Saturday, I'm binge-drinking, and I thought I'd get a drop on the usual welcome-thread derail.
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Old 7th November 2015, 04:30 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: Dissecting ptutt's assertions

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It explains why there is something rather than nothing. It removes the necessity of infinite regression of causation and time. It explains why moral values are objective. It explains how free will can exist. It explains why following Christian values work.
1) It doesn't explain, any more than the milky way squirting out of some female gods tits explains it.

2) Like fuck it does, where did god come from? Existed forever, problem solved by an assertion, you have no evidence god even exists let alone existed forever, and if one thing, god, can exits forever why not two things, the universe in one form or other. You confuse, we don't know, with nothing, no scientist has ever claimed the universe came from nothing.

3) They aren't, I suggest looking up the behaviour of middle ages Pope's, study the changing definition of marriage through the ages and acceptance of same sex relations. If morality was objective people might still behave the same way, but it would have been regarded as sin when it plainly wasn't. Morality is subjective as far as we can tell.

4) No it doesn't, it's the same type of argument as point 1, it's an assertion.

5) They don't, because most values we follow are societal values developed through hundreds of thousands of years of communal living, not christian values. Christian values, those values that we can ascertain are drawn solely from the bible are almost all repugnant, most values that build society and relationships between individuals and groups existed for thousands of years before christianity and the bible came along to divide us into believers and unbelievers, and then to burn the unbelievers.

Quote:
If God exists...He created us in such a way as to know Him aside from evidence.
And this is obviously untrue, if this was true then we would all believe in god, and not only god, but the same god. It's not even certain that variations of christianity believe in the same god, how far does your understanding of god have to vary from the commonly accepted principals before someone has to stand up and say, "well this is obviously not the god I believe in!"
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Old 7th November 2015, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: Dissecting ptutt's assertions

Quote:
Goldenmane said View Post
New member ptutt posted the following in their Introduction:

Quote:
there are 2 main reasons that make me faithful:
1. The Christian world view makes more sense than an atheistic world view. It explains why there is something rather than nothing. It removes the necessity of infinite regression of causation and time. It explains why moral values are objective. It explains how free will can exist. It explains why following Christian values work. It explains how Jesus can have more impact than any other in history.
2. I believe because I believe, aside from evidence. Just as I believe the world is real, just as I believe my memory to be true (at least some of it) aside from evidence, I believe. I see this as the foundation of belief. If God exists...He created us in such a way as to know Him aside from evidence.
This is the thread for examining these claims.

I think he's forgetting that people made his God up. Just like they made up the others. When I'm at the pooter proper I shall swap his Christian and Jesus for Islam and Mo. Perhaps it will make more sense that way.
Whatcha think ptutt?


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Old 7th November 2015, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: Dissecting ptutt's assertions

ptutt:
Quote:
If God exists... He created us in such a way as to know Him aside from evidence.
Because to look upon His face is to have one's own melted off. Also, one's god-given yet sinful genitals explode. You could probably still get by thereafter with a bit of surgery and some counselling.
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Old 7th November 2015, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: Dissecting ptutt's assertions

Worst of all, god gave us brains, but we are not actually supposed to use them.
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Old 8th November 2015, 09:07 AM
ptutt ptutt is offline
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Default Re: Dissecting ptutt's assertions

I may as well start from the top.

The Christian world view makes more sense than an atheistic world view. It explains why there is something rather than nothing.

Quote:
Goldenmane said View Post

...Actually, it doesn't. A claim - and an unsubstantiated one at that - is not an explanation. They are two very different things. A claim is simply something one asserts. An explanation involves such things as mechanisms and causal chains and evidence.

What you are confusing for an explanation is simply the claim 'God did it'. There's no evidence involved...
I disagree the claim is not an explanation. If we had our first visit to mars and discovered machine made of some unknown metallic compound, that implemented technology far more advanced than anything created on earth, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that it was created and put there by other intelligent life forms? I don't know how or why they put their, but I would see that as the best explanation as to why it exists. I don't have to provide evidence for the existence of aliens for it to be the best explanation.

1. Something exists either because it is created by something else or its existence is necessary in it's nature.

2. The universe's existence is contingent

i) All the existence of physical matter is contingent. You don't find a diamond ring and say, it just exists, or rocks, trees, planets, atoms, quarks, virtual particles....all are contingent.

ii) If the universe (all physical reality) had a beginning (which is the most supported view of cosmologists based on inflation theory) then its existence is contingent and created by something else.

Therefore it makes more sense than not to say that the existence of the universe is contingent.

3. The best explanation for the universe's existence is God.

The 'something else' that created the universe cannot be part of physical reality, otherwise it would be creating itself, which is a logical contradiction.

Therefore the 'something else' needs to be non-material. There are only two things we know of that can exist that are non-material, abstract objects (like numbers) or unembodied minds. Numbers do not have causal effect, therefore the only non-material option is an unembodied mind (I have covered on why I believe in the existence of unembodied minds (souls) in the free will discussion).

The cause must be outside of time to have created time.

Therefore the universe's existence is contingent on a timeless, unembodied mind for which the best explanation is God.

If atheism is true, then, the universe does not have an explanation for it's existence.
This then implies that if the universe has an explanation for it's existence that atheism is false and therefore God exists.
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