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Introduce Yourself Please introduce yourself and share what makes you faithless or faithful.

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  #11  
Old 10th January 2013, 07:12 PM
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wolty wolty is offline
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Default Re: probing

Saw this today. Thanks Prudie.

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The Nizkor Project- Logical Fallacies

Atheist: n; A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
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  #12  
Old 10th January 2013, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
ragman said View Post
The first curiosity is:

What is it that athiests don't believe in?
I don't 'believe' in anything. But then, I don't not 'believe' in anything either.
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Given that thiests have such a struggle defining God in the first place and end up leaving it simply as 'no man can concieve of God'. What is it that is 'not' to be believed? This means that 'any' concept of god that is held, is automatically wrong and therefore rightly denyable. No?
Yes. If a definition of a god could be espoused that was 'natural' then we could go with that. The problem of course is gods are supernatural and beyond everything that could be used to verify their existence. Except for people that make shit up, of course.
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Is it then that atheism can't entertain any principle beyond what can be conceived in the mind of man? Or is that too much of a Randian Objectivist statement?
Perhaps you could give us an idea that can't be conceived in the mind of man so we can examine it?
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The Nizkor Project- Logical Fallacies

Atheist: n; A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
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  #13  
Old 10th January 2013, 07:28 PM
ragman ragman is offline
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robertkd said View Post
Belief

1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

2: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/belief

So belief is either based in evidence e.g. 3 or in personal convection that is unevidenced.
Cool. I was given the impression by Athiest conventions such as 'Beyond Belief' that 'belief' itself was to be shunned.

Quote:
The Sun is not a god it's a star, it has been mistaken as a god but n ow we know better based on evidence.
Here again is the issue, what are you defining a god to be, for the sun to not be one?
If a culture calls the set of celestial lights 'gods' then the sun is defined as a god, in no different way than we define it as a star.

ragman
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  #14  
Old 10th January 2013, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: probing

Perhaps this may help a little with regards 'belief'.

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The Nizkor Project- Logical Fallacies

Atheist: n; A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
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  #15  
Old 10th January 2013, 07:34 PM
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ragman said View Post

Here again is the issue, what are you defining a god to be, for the sun to not be one?
If a culture calls the set of celestial lights 'gods' then the sun is defined as a god, in no different way than we define it as a star.

ragman
If we can't agree on a starting point of basic ideas, this will go nowhere.
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The Nizkor Project- Logical Fallacies

Atheist: n; A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
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  #16  
Old 10th January 2013, 07:47 PM
Joff Joff is offline
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Quote:
ragman said View Post
Cool. I was given the impression by Athiest conventions such as 'Beyond Belief' that 'belief' itself was to be shunned.



Here again is the issue, what are you defining a god to be, for the sun to not be one?
If a culture calls the set of celestial lights 'gods' then the sun is defined as a god, in no different way than we define it as a star.

ragman
That is just language. The sun is a big ball mostly made up of hydrogen and helium. If the word given to it by any culture means a big ball of hydrogen and helium, even if that word is 'god', then you are right.
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  #17  
Old 10th January 2013, 07:53 PM
ragman ragman is offline
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wolty said View Post
Perhaps you could give us an idea that can't be conceived in the mind of man so we can examine it?
We could start with Gödel's incompleteness theorem (but I'm certainly no mathmetician)?

ragman
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  #18  
Old 10th January 2013, 08:00 PM
ragman ragman is offline
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Joff said View Post
That is just language. The sun is a big ball mostly made up of hydrogen and helium. If the word given to it by any culture means a big ball of hydrogen and helium, even if that word is 'god', then you are right.
That's a bit unfair and somewhat selfrightious isn't it? Given that terms like hydrogen and helium and our understanding of the Sun are from our own culture which has a few hundred years of science having to completely revise its fundamentals? And from that I wonder if the only difference between science and religion is that science is allowed to change its fundamentals.

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  #19  
Old 10th January 2013, 08:14 PM
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ragman said View Post
We could start with Gödel's incompleteness theorem (but I'm certainly no mathmetician)?

ragman
Has the idea been conceived in the mind of man?

We could but my brain may explode.
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The Nizkor Project- Logical Fallacies

Atheist: n; A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
—Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary
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  #20  
Old 10th January 2013, 08:17 PM
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ragman said View Post
Cool. I was given the impression by Athiest conventions such as 'Beyond Belief' that 'belief' itself was to be shunned.
Depends the english language carries with it many terms, "beyond belief" would be something not evidenced such as so called supernatural events. One can have a belief in something based on experiment or knowledge such as a belief that a chair that has been used time and time again has demonstrated reasonably that it will support you when you sit upon it. Perhaps definition 1.

This is more the common non supernatural use of belief.

Definition 2, on the other hand is the iffy one for the discussion, now it could be equally applied to belief if someone told you that pixies lived in the bottom of their garden if you trusted that person you might well believe that said pixies exist also. However this definition falls flat when definition 3 is applied hence why the usage of the word "belief" needs to used carefully.

Of course a counter argument can be bought in that I believe something that say Lawrence Krauss or even Steven Hawking wrote to be true. Ah gotcha you might say what's the difference see definition 2, sure but not so quick as it really is a trust based on definition 3 in that rigorous testing and evidence is used to reach their respective positions.


Quote:
Here again is the issue, what are you defining a god to be, for the sun to not be one?
If a culture calls the set of celestial lights 'gods' then the sun is defined as a god, in no different way than we define it as a star.

ragman
No that definition doesn't make sense, yes to some people might believe that is the case but in reality that doesn't make it true.
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